Sorry... got that from one of the emergency response staff... just initial scattered thinking.
It's possible that a previous arrival reported shear and tower didn't pass it along... but even then it wouldn't be tower's fault. Of course if shear was mentioned on the ATIS or metar then all arrivals theoretically should assume it is present. I'll listen to the ATC and check the weather.
Could ATC be feeling pressure to process landings and departures to catch up for all the cancellations over the last few days?
Probably, but the conditions don't look outside of the limits for this airplane.
Most importantly, the decision on whether or not to land the airplane is made by the captain. If ATC says you're clear to land, gives you the wind and it's outside the crosswind limit of your airplane and you attempt to land, that is not ATC's fault.
Edit: I don't mean to imply ATC has no regard for the safety of the airplane. But every type has different limits, every company has a different SOP that may or may not line up with the aircraft manufacturer, every flight crew has a different amount of wind with which they might be comfortable... ATC therefore can't make the call.
All ATC can do in this scenario is just try to get the planes landing on the best possible runway, and pass along as much helpful info as they can.
Last edited by Acey; 02-17-2025 at 03:12 PM.
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It's possible that a previous arrival reported shear and tower didn't pass it along... but even then it wouldn't be tower's fault. Of course if shear was mentioned on the ATIS or metar then all arrivals theoretically should assume it is present. I'll listen to the ATC and check the weather.
You're right, of course. And the guys I'm talking to aren't tower people, so of course they're initial thoughts and spitballing really don't mean a lot.
Edit: you posted that as I was typing ^^... there are errors in that transcription which is not surprising given the speed he gets it out
Listening to the ATC. Toronto always does this these days, but one tower controller works runway 5/23 and 6L/24R at the same time, which is crazy to me. They must get do a lot of spinning in their chairs up there. Doesn't appear to be a factor... these guys are amazing.
There is no specific mention of shear but the weather report 12 min before the accident said wind 270 at 28 gusting 35 with blowing snow... that's nasty. An American Embraer, roughly the same size as the accident plane, landed a couple minutes prior and didn't say anything about poor braking, gusts or shear.
Plane: Toronto Tower, Endeavor 4819, OMTOK ILS 23
Tower: Endeavor 4819, Toronto Tower, wind 270 at 23 gust 33 clear to land runway 23, you might get a slight bump in the glidepath there'll be an aircraft in front of it
Plane: Clear to land 23, Endeavor 4819 (unrelated comms)
Tower: Wind check 260 at 24 gust 33 (unrelated comms) *accident airplane crosses landing threshold*
Tower: Echo mike tango medevac line up runway 23, it'll just be once you cross the runway
EMT Medevac: *mic click to acknowledge* *accident plane cartwheels*
Rouge 7105: Rouge 7105 OMTOK final 23
Tower: *panic voice* Rouge 7105 pull up and go around
Unknown: this airplane just crashed on 23
Tower: Rouge 7105 pull up and go around
Tower: Mike tango medevac you can just stay there
EMT Medevac: we'll hold here, echo mike tango medevac
Tower: Rouge 7105 stop climb 3,000
tl;dr:
- ATC did great and provided an additional wind check prior to touchdown
- no reports of shear from previous arrivals
- the crosswind component appears to be within the legal limit. Based on tower's wind check a few seconds before touchdown, the 33 knot gust from 260° is ~17 knots of cross. A quick search suggests, on a slippery runway, a limit of 22 knots for the CRJ-900
Last edited by Acey; 02-17-2025 at 04:41 PM.
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Could be a possible downdraft, shear, the headwind just fell out from under them; not saying any of those definitively happened but if a wind of 260 at 24 gust 33 is not deemed to be a contributing factor in some capacity I'd be shocked.
The bags all go in the very back of a CRJ, right between the engines. Like you'll smack your head on the engine if you don't duck. These were the fun days at YEG many years ago...
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Looks like wake turbulence could have been an issue, the ATC did warn the pilots of that as part of the landing clearance.
Nope. The aicraft the tower was talking about is EMT medevac in my transcript above, who was taxiing in front of the glideslope antenna on the north side of the runway which momentarily interrupts the signal.
"Slight bump in the glidepath" meaning the vertical component of the instrument landing system will momentarily be erroneous, not "side bumping" or whatever nonsense in the video.
I'm seeing people say this everywhere, and I'm figuring it's mostly because of VASAviation's transcript of the ATC recording being incorrect.
