I liked his character as well, but after watching him and the members of Dog company take the 3rd gun on Day of Days - I dont think anyone would want to be like Spears.
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Everyone likes to think they would be Spears. In reality, I don't think anyone of us, biggest tough guy or whimpiest whimplet, would know until thrust into the actual moment.
In some ways, I think that's what draws men to war....to find a little truth in who they really are.
Most people think that they would be Audie Murphy in battle, but in reality they'd be more like Eddie Murphy.
The first rule in combat as we were taught by our instructing Warrant Officer was "Keep your $#@#$@#%$ head down"
The second rule was "Watch where you $#@#$@#% step"
The third rule was "Keep your $%#$%#$^# head down"
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Actually the end of the battleship era was previewed in the Atlantic theatre where large battleships like the Hood and Bismarck were demonstrated to be pretty much useless.
Useless? What sank the Hood? The bloody big battleship you mentioned, the Bismark. And in 10 mins flat. Seems fairly useful to me. That ship also took a monstrous beating but still stay afloat. It took the entire British Navy and Airforce to sink it and only because it's rudder was to damaged that it couldn't make it back to port.
The battleship didn't become useless until the missle became mainstream.
And no, I never did wonder why the carriers were out at sea, they were doing manoveurs.
Useless? What sank the Hood? The bloody big battleship you mentioned, the Bismark. And in 10 mins flat. Seems fairly useful to me. That ship also took a monstrous beating but still stay afloat. It took the entire British Navy and Airforce to sink it and only because it's rudder was to damaged that it couldn't make it back to port.
The battleship didn't become useless until the missle became mainstream.
And no, I never did wonder why the carriers were out at sea, they were doing manoveurs.
And the Bismark was effectively rendered to turn in circles, waiting for the British battleships to finish her off, by a few obsolete bi-planes. (The Hood was a WWI era ship, effectively obsolete compared to the Bismark).
As late as Gulf War I, the US Navy found it useful to have a great big battleship blowing things up on land but it had been many, many decades since that kind of behemoth could sail around without air cover for protection.
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The Pearl Harbor attack plan had two immediate goals; the destruction of American aircraft carriers known to frequent the area, and the sinking of as many other capital ships as possible, especially battleships.
I'll stick by the point the Japanese found the Taranto ambush very instructive . . . . . and I think Japan had about 10 fleet carriers at the start of WWII versus about four for the Americans which indicates where their thoughts were lying.
The Japanese were doing pretty well holding their own initially but for every carrier sunk, they lost valuable, highly trained pilots which they could never replace.
America, in turn, could turn out an infinite supply of highly trained pilots and continually updated equipment, hence the Great Mariannas Turkey Shoot later on.
At the end of the war, America had about 100 aircraft carriers in the Pacific alone.
Cowperson
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And the Bismark was effectively rendered to turn in circles, waiting for the British battleships to finish her off, by a few obsolete bi-planes. (The Hood was a WWI era ship, effectively obsolete compared to the Bismark).
As late as Gulf War I, the US Navy found it useful to have a great big battleship blowing things up on land but it had been many, many decades since that kind of behemoth could sail around without air cover for protection.
I'll stick by the point the Japanese found the Taranto ambush very instructive . . . . . and I think Japan had about 10 fleet carriers at the start of WWII versus about four for the Americans which indicates where their thoughts were lying.
The Japanese were doing pretty well holding their own initially but for every carrier sunk, they lost valuable, highly trained pilots which they could never replace.
America, in turn, could turn out an infinite supply of highly trained pilots and continually updated equipment, hence the Great Mariannas Turkey Shoot later on.
At the end of the war, America had about 100 aircraft carriers in the Pacific alone.
Cowperson
The American's stumbled across the strategy of building cheap Jeep or Escort Carriers in the second World War. They were slow compared to the fleet carriers, held about half the amount of planes and were half the size of the Fleet Carriers that the Americans had.
If you were going to compare in modern turns the British carriers that sail today would be considered Jeep carriers compared to the monsters that the U.S. Navy put out.
The American's built 150 aircraft carriers in WW2 120 of which were the jeep or escort which mainly stuck to convoy duties.
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Useless? What sank the Hood? The bloody big battleship you mentioned, the Bismark. And in 10 mins flat. Seems fairly useful to me. That ship also took a monstrous beating but still stay afloat. It took the entire British Navy and Airforce to sink it and only because it's rudder was to damaged that it couldn't make it back to port.
The battleship didn't become useless until the missle became mainstream.
And no, I never did wonder why the carriers were out at sea, they were doing manoveurs.
Besides sinking another useless battleship what did the Bismarck actually do in WWII? Answer: absolutely nothing
That was the lesson of the big battleships you so proudly defend. They were useless in naval warfare. A crappy aircraft carrier with freaking bi-planes took that thing out. It doesn't take a genious naval planner to realize what the future of Naval power would be looking directly at the example of the Bismarck.
2nd - The Brits pretty much focused ALL of their attention in sinking the Bismark in retaliation for the Hood. When you have an entire nations armed forces out for blood looking for a SINGLE ship that is pretty much all by itself, it doesn't have much chance. Even at that it took an increcible amount of effort. Everything from the water line up was pretty much blown off the ship due to the massive bombardment it recieved. I could be wrong but I think they even had to get on board and plant charges to get it to go down.
It took the ENTIRE NAVY/AIRFORCE to sink it, the biplane you speak of did nothing but damage it's rudder. Had it been able to sail properly to port it would have made it back inot battle and God only knows what damage it would have done. If it truly was useless, why would Germany have launched it in the first place?
Last edited by GoinAllTheWay; 03-15-2010 at 03:27 PM.
2nd - The Brits pretty much focused ALL of their attention in sinking the Bismark in retaliation for the Hood. When you have an entire nations armed forces out for blood looking for a SINGLE ship that is pretty much all by itself, it doesn't have much chance. Even at that it took an increcible amount of effort. Everything from the water line up was pretty much blown off the ship due to the massive bombardment it recieved. I could be wrong but I think they even had to get on board and plant charges to get it to go down.
It took the ENTIRE NAVY/AIRFORCE to sink it, the biplane you speak of did nothing but damage it's rudder. Had it been able to sail properly to port it would have made it back inot battle and God only knows what damage it would have done. If it truly was useless, why would Germany have launched it in the first place?
It took a few obsolete bi-planes to render the Bismark a sitting duck for the British warships to finally catch up to.
Any other interpretation is ridiculous.
(Incidentally, the British lost the aircraft carrier Ark Royal in their pursuit of the Bismark. Submarine attack.)
Regarding escort carriers, the most famous engagement they were involved in was the Battle of Samar Bay near the Phillipines where a small force of American ships, including a few escort carriers, held off a much larger Japanese force bent on destroying a largely unguarded American supply fleet anchored nearby. This would have been a disaster for the Americans and a humiliation for Admiral Halsey who went off on a wild goose chase.
It took a few obsolete bi-planes to render the Bismark a sitting duck for the British warships to finally catch up to.
I don't disagree with this at all. At the start of the war Battleships weren't really designed for air threats, especially low level air threats like torpedo planes. Frankly if that torpedo had hit anywhere else it probably would have bounced off of the Bismarks lower armour belt. A torpedo shot like that disabling the rudder after being dropped off of a vintage bi-pane would be equivalent to Luke Skywalker hitting a thermal exhaust port right above the main port that was only two metres wide.
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Originally Posted by Cowperson
(Incidentally, the British lost the aircraft carrier Ark Royal in their pursuit of the Bismark. Submarine attack.)
Submarines were devestating against Carriers in WWII.
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Originally Posted by Cowperson
Regarding escort carriers, the most famous engagement they were involved in was the Battle of Samar Bay near the Phillipines where a small force of American ships, including a few escort carriers, held off a much larger Japanese force bent on destroying a largely unguarded American supply fleet anchored nearby. This would have been a disaster for the Americans and a humiliation for Admiral Halsey who went off on a wild goose chase.
Funnily enough they refered to this in the Hunt for Red October when Jack Ryan tells Ramius that he wrote a book on Halsey and his command decisions at Leyte, and Ramius replied "I know this book Ryan, your conclusions were all wrong, Halsey acted stupidly.
Its often theorized that Midway might have been lost by the American's if Halsey was in charge. Its thought that Halsey would have continued the attack to find the remaining Japanese Carriers after the sun went down, even though the Japanese were considered to be superb night fighters. Nimitz on the other hand looked at his winnings looked at the risks of continuing to attack the Japanese fleet and called his planes home.
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I have a book that says the correct answer is... 99 carriers had been readied for the planned invasion of Japan. It doesn't say if they were all deployed when the nukes went off though.
and I think Japan had about 10 fleet carriers at the start of WWII versus about four for the Americans which indicates where their thoughts were lying.
The Japanese at the time of Pearl Harbor had 3 escort carriers(Taiyo, Chuyo, Ryujo) and 6 fleet carriers(Shokaku, Zuikaku, Soryu, Hiryu, Akagi, and Kaga).
The US Pacific fleet had four fleet carriers(Lexington, Saratoga, Yorktown, and the Enterprise) and another two in Atlantic that would be transfer to the Pacific fleet early in the war(Wasp and Hornet), plus another carrier that remained in the Atlantic for the duration of the war(Ranger).
I don't disagree with this at all. At the start of the war Battleships weren't really designed for air threats, especially low level air threats like torpedo planes. Frankly if that torpedo had hit anywhere else it probably would have bounced off of the Bismarks lower armour belt. A torpedo shot like that disabling the rudder after being dropped off of a vintage bi-pane would be equivalent to Luke Skywalker hitting a thermal exhaust port right above the main port that was only two metres wide.
It was a flu-key hit for sure, the Bismarck was a feared beast and for good reason, It took direct hits of 400 shells from various British ships to sink her even as a sitting duck, over 80 of which were from the 12 to 16 inch variety.
A Bismarck tribute
This is a must see. The pride of the British fleet feels Bismarks wrath, of the 1421 sailors...3 survive.(one of them comments in this vid)
