HBO's The Pacific

[mykalberta]

No more conspiracy theories please

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Pastiche

Actually the end of the battleship era was previewed in the Atlantic theatre where large battleships like the Hood and Bismarck were demonstrated to be pretty much useless. Battleships were all but obsolete in the Pacific Theatre as a result.

I would agree with that, and probably ammend my statement, but I believet that the American's probably still thought that Battle Ships would carry the day in the Pacific so that they could have a easier transition over to carriers.

Originally Posted by Pastiche

Ever wonder why there were no American carriers moored at Pearl Habour and they were all conveniently out for maintenance that day? Meanwhile all those shiny big battleships like the Arizona were there to be sunk. Many people think that that wasn't a coincidence.

More long the lines of a bad failure by Japanese Intelligence then anything else. The American Navy had three carriers stationed at Pearl. Enterprise and Lexington were on a mission to Wake Island to deliver planes, they hadn't been in port for quite a while. Enterprise was actually scheduled back on the 6th but hit bad weather that delayed its return. Saratoga was in refit in Puget sound.

In terms of the battleship vs carrier you might want to read the Mahan Doctrine which was standard navy doctrine at that time. It veiwed battleships as key assets and carriers as scout elements.

[worth]

I don't think it's entirely true that battleships were obsolete in the Pacific theater. The Enterprise Aircraft Carrier had the USS North Carolina Battleship with it which was a beast and put up a lot of "flack" for incoming Japanese aircraft, pardon the pun. It was certainly a useful ship.

[CaptainCrunch]

I think even the Japanese admirality considered the battleships were going to be the ships that carried the day in terms of fleet battles and shore bombardment

They had commissioned two super battleships the Yamato class which were built between 37 and 42.

They carried 9 18 inch rifles which were far larger then anything in the American inventory, 37 AA guns 6 6 inch guns and 12 five inch guns. They were fast, mean and heavily armoured and their job was to outclass the American battleships.

They had built two, with another two built after 1942. However the losses of key fleet elements at Midway forced the Japanese to stop construction so they could focus on rebuilding their fleet.

[worth]

Losing 4 carriers in one day is not the way to win a war.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by worth

Losing 4 carriers in one day is not the way to win a war.

Midway was Japan's big dice role, they had victory fever because they had been kicking a$$ across the Pacific. Yamamoto knew that he wasn't going to win the war if it dragged on, he was hoping to deal a fatal blow to the American Navy and force them to negotiate a treaty.

They were also expecting to face Halsey and not Nimitz, and Nimitz approach was far more deliberate then Halsey who was a hard charger.

The arrogance on the Japanese Navy was shown early and often. They did very light scouting, they had poor intelligence as they expected the American Carriers to still be in Pearl Harbour. Because of this they left their carriers relatively exposed and bunched up.

The over aggressiveness of the Japanese Pilots where they all dropped low to go after the slow planes of Torpedo Squadron 8 left the formation wide open for dive bomber attacks.

The American's scouted better, had better luck, and knew the Japanese were coming due to the Water Purifier trick. There was no way that the Japanese were going to win the battle. When things started going wrong they should have retired from the Battlefield instead of trying to pursue another strike against American Carriers which left them very vunerable as they kept changing the loadouts on their planes.

[You Need a Thneed]

I think it's clear that the Japanese thought Battleships would be the key elements in the war. They specifically targeted the American battleships at Pearl Harbour, and were fairly heavily investing in their own.

There's so many interesting battles in the war of the Pacific.

I picked up volume one of this book when we were at Pearl Harbour a year ago. A good read to understand the pacific war a little better.

[CaptainCrunch]

I just finished a book called Unrestricted Warfare. Its about the Submarine War in WWII with a heavy focus on Captain's like Mush Morton, probably one of the greatest sub captains of all time.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

I think it's clear that the Japanese thought Battleships would be the key elements in the war. They specifically targeted the American battleships at Pearl Harbour, and were fairly heavily investing in their own.

There's so many interesting battles in the war of the Pacific.

I picked up volume one of this book when we were at Pearl Harbour a year ago. A good read to understand the pacific war a little better.

Actually, they were specifically targetting America's aircraft carriers, which were not in the harbour at the time.

That was Yamamoto's "Oh frak" moment.

If I'm not mistaken, Japan had the largest carrier fleet in the world at the time and were heavily influenced by the British carrier assault on the Italian fleet at Taranto.

It is true that Japan did have two of the largest battleships in the world as well.

Saw the first episode of Pacific last night and am still getting emotionally invested in the characters but the particular terrors of jungle warfare are already starting to come to the fore. They don't know it yet, but even those lovely streams they were floating in contain bugs that will kill or disable them.

Just walking down a jungle path, the greeness closing in on you, where anything, including a machine gun, could be hiding three feet from you and you wouldn't know it . . . . . must have been a permanent sphincter-tightening experience.

The most alarming statistics of these battles in the Pacific were the fact the Japanese, who might have numbered in the many tens of thousands on any of these islands, died virtually to the last man. America's first real experience with suicide fighters.

Cowperson

[d_phaneuf]

I liked it a lot

I also like that it seems they are going to focus on more than one group, makes it distinct from BoB

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Actually, they were specifically targetting America's aircraft carriers, which were not in the harbour at the time.

True, The Japanese wanted to roll up the carriers and the battleships. Destroyers and Cruisers ment nothing because they can't project power. Carriers project power hundreds of miles around a battlegroup. Battleships in their own way at the time could project power due to the 25 mile range of their primary guns. Before the war Yamamto was asked by the Japanese Prime Minister if he could win the war, he honestly said that he couldn't but he could cause trouble for the American's for a year or two. When the Japanese missed the carriers, he still had the large advantage of ships and planes, but the American's had better trained pilots, and as the war carried on a greater gap in aircraft technology.

Originally Posted by Cowperson

That was Yamamoto's "Oh frak" moment.

Yup, and he knew right then and there that he was probably going to use the war. Its not like the three carriers left the day before the attack, they had been missing for some time. The Japanese however didn't have reliable intelligent assets in Pearl that could tell the difference between a battleship and a carrier.

Originally Posted by Cowperson

If I'm not mistaken, Japan had the largest carrier fleet in the world at the time and were heavily influenced by the British carrier assault on the Italian fleet at Taranto.

Yes, but there was certainly a split in Japanese naval doctrine, but the Japanese continued to build battleships at a more accelerated pace then carriers.

Originally Posted by Cowperson

It is true that Japan did have two of the largest battleships in the world as well.

Saw the first episode of Pacific last night and am still getting emotionally invested in the characters but the particular terrors of jungle warfare are already starting to come to the fore. They don't know it yet, but even those lovely streams they were floating in contain bugs that will kill or disable them.

I hate to sound like a coward, but I preferred anything else as oppossed to fighting in the tree's especailly at night. The Island hopping battles were more of a preview for Vietnam then the Korean war was.

Originally Posted by Cowperson

The most alarming statistics of these battles in the Pacific were the fact the Japanese, who might have numbered in the many tens of thousands, dying virtually to the last man. America's first real experience with suicide fighters.

Cowperson

Towards the end the Americans the American's were not showing to much mercy towards Japanese soldiers and airmen because of their fanatic nature. A Japanese soldier was more likely to pull the pin on his grenade rather then accepting medical treakment or humaliating capture. Because of this, American troops were more likely to finish off the wounded as oppossed to risking their lives saving them,

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Actually, they were specifically targetting America's aircraft carriers, which were not in the harbour at the time.

I don't believe so. Take it for what it is, but this is what Wikipedia says:

To maximise the effect on morale, battleships were chosen as the main target, since they were the prestige ships of any navy at the time.

Whatever was intended, there was other targets at pearl Harbour, had they been targeted, that would have crippled the American fleet.

Looking further down the wiki article it says that the tragets were the large ships that happened to be there (whether it happened to be Battleships or Carriers)

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

I don't believe so. Take it for what it is, but this is what Wikipedia says:



Whatever was intended, there was other targets at pearl Harbour, had they been targeted, that would have crippled the American fleet.

Looking further down the wiki article it says that the tragets were the large ships that happened to be there (whether it happened to be Battleships or Carriers)

Every bomber was given a specific group of ships to go after accompanied by photo's taken by reconassance these photos included carriers. Even if you look at the tracking boards on the japanese carriers they had Icons and hit counts for the three fleet carriers that they thought would be there. The Japanese intent was to roll of the battleships and carriers which would force the American Navy to for a period of time be a frigate navy built around cruisers destroyers, frigates and subs.

The expectation was that the carriers were there, but they had no intelligence for several days before the attack.

[CaptainCrunch]

Just to keep adding, the destruction of 4 carriers at Midway for the Japanese, the loss of so many of their top pilots and their inability to upgrade their fighter capability lead to one of the greatest and most one sided Naval Carrier battles ever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...Philippine_Sea

The American's called it the Great Mirianas Turkey Shoot.

The American's traded 123 planes for 3 carriers, 600 planes 2 fleet Oilers and heavy damage to 6 other Japanese fleets.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I hate to sound like a coward, but I preferred anything else as oppossed to fighting in the tree's especailly at night.

Remember the guy from last night who was cowering in the bunker all freaked out? Yeah, that'd be me.

[CaptainCrunch]

Its not the same thing, but during the last excercise of basic we fought a night battle to protect our encampment. As a squad leader I had to go from L-trench to L-Trench in the middle of the night to make sure that everything was secured.

It was pitch dark and deadly quiet, and I was really into it. I crept around a stand of trees and took a look down field, but I couldn't see anything. One of the enemy force had gotten into the tree line and opened up on me with his SAW, I pretty much pooped my pants, probably screamed like a girl too.

[3 Justin 3]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Remember the guy from last night who was cowering in the bunker all freaked out? Yeah, that'd be me.

That was Blythe in BoB.

I'd be the guy running and gunning like Spears.

[Pastiche]

Originally Posted by 3 Justin 3

That was Blythe in BoB.

I'd be the guy running and gunning like Spears.

No you wouldn't.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by 3 Justin 3

That was Blythe in BoB.

I'd be the guy running and gunning like Spears.

We had a special nick name for guys like that. What was that name . . . Its so far in the past its hard to remember. Oh yeah . . . the bullet catcher.

[Table 5]

Everyone likes to think they would be Spears. In reality, I don't think anyone of us, biggest tough guy or whimpiest whimplet, would know until thrust into the actual moment.

In some ways, I think that's what draws men to war....to find a little truth in who they really are.