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Old 10-17-2006, 09:58 PM   #161
northernflame
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Well, if you want to tell me that everything that exists today came from nothing, with no planned purpose, and somehow ended up existing the way it does today, Im hardpressed to beleive you as well. I look at the complexity of the world surrounding us just like you do everyday and beleive that "to be honest in all likelihood the probability of this happening randomly, when you stop to think about it must be close to 0." Is not beleiving that the universe and all of its complexity just somehow came about similar to beleiving that a tornado could run thru a junkyard and out pops a fully functional airplane??? (Albeit, the weather system and everything that goes into creating a tornado and then all the junk would also have to magically evolve over time) How is this not faithbased?? Your magic solution is to just more time into the equation and itll work itself out. What about complex things like blood clotting, this process is a package, it cant gradually just come about step by step unless it had an end goal in mind, no?? http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe.html

Heres a site which attempts to explain better what Im talking about. Its got links by atheists to his claims as well. I guess you can decide which side you beleive. I tend to believe in a God, and not only for the reason above, its a personal decision and not any more irrational than believing that there is 100% no chance that a God could exist.

Then again, Im coming across defensive like you said theists would....

Good post because it brings up two of the most familar refrains from the theist camp.

1) Since the universe is so complex, how in the world could it spring out of nothing? The question of all times, but how does the introduction of a all powerful diety have any explanatory whatsoever for addressing this question. Trying to explain complexity by adding even more complexity simply gets you leads you to an infinite regress - if God created this universe, he must be even more complex, and then so where did he come from?

2) Evolution is not random and therefore would not predict that the wind would blow togethor an airplane willy nilly out of thin air. Given enough time is possible that may happen, but the liklihood is so small as to be not relevant. Think of it this way, if you look at, say, the price of oil, it definititely exhibits violitility, but once you strip that away, oil prices exhibit a long-term upward trend. So think of those price variations around the underlying trend as being genetic random mutations, and the underlying long term trend as being those genes that are best suited to survival and therefore as being "selected" by the environment and passed on to the subsequent generations, and hence imparting a directionality to evolutionary processes.

Last edited by northernflame; 10-17-2006 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 10-18-2006, 06:49 AM   #162
Cheese
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Originally Posted by FlamesFanInEdm View Post
Well, if you want to tell me that everything that exists today came from nothing, with no planned purpose, and somehow ended up existing the way it does today, Im hardpressed to beleive you as well. I look at the complexity of the world surrounding us just like you do everyday and beleive that "to be honest in all likelihood the probability of this happening randomly, when you stop to think about it must be close to 0." Is not beleiving that the universe and all of its complexity just somehow came about similar to beleiving that a tornado could run thru a junkyard and out pops a fully functional airplane??? (Albeit, the weather system and everything that goes into creating a tornado and then all the junk would also have to magically evolve over time) How is this not faithbased?? Your magic solution is to just more time into the equation and itll work itself out. What about complex things like blood clotting, this process is a package, it cant gradually just come about step by step unless it had an end goal in mind, no?? http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe.html

Heres a site which attempts to explain better what Im talking about. Its got links by atheists to his claims as well. I guess you can decide which side you beleive. I tend to believe in a God, and not only for the reason above, its a personal decision and not any more irrational than believing that there is 100% no chance that a God could exist.

Then again, Im coming across defensive like you said theists would....
"What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church...a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them."
--- Martin Luther

Creationism vs Evolution has been discussed at great length in past posts here.
Can the Biblical creation story in Genesis be converted into a scientific account of the origin of humanity? Is it a fair and plausible alternative to the theory of evolution? Many people believe so, and some people work hard to make it so. But can it be done honestly and with integrity? I havent seen it yet...your post seems to imply that one requires "faith" to believe in an all powerful God, who created the world from nothing.
Seeing as though you linked to TalkOrigins I thought I would as well...maybe you didnt read this part?


5 Major Misconceptions of Evolution

The five propositions below seem to be the most common misconceptions based on a Creationist straw-man version of evolution. If you hear anyone making any of them, chances are excellent that they don't know enough about the real theory of evolution to make informed opinions about it.
  • Evolution has never been observed.
  • Evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
  • There are no transitional fossils.
  • The theory of evolution says that life originated, and evolution proceeds, by random chance.
  • Evolution is only a theory; it hasn't been proved.
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