The Fight Against Scientology

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Oh cmon Snake...you dont know me at all....I post here asking simple and pointed questions. troutman has done the excat same thing I have as well as Cowperson on many occasions. Theists get upset when ANYONE questions their validity.

Troutman, Cowperson et al do not invade every single religious thread to push their beliefs.

If you take the side of a Christian yet arent one isnt that a fence sitter...or hedging your bets?

I accept that the beliefs of a Christian are as valid as the beliefs of an athiest. Both are as valid as my own beliefs. My comments throughout this thread have been specific to your argument that religion is the root of all evil. This entire debate goes beyond one religion.

I dont hedge my bets at all...I have made a firm decision and stick with it. Much like a true theist...yet noone seems to hound on them for invading the lives of secular people. I never waiver.

And I respect your conviction in your beliefs. And FWIW, I have very little respect for Mormon and Jehovahs Witnesses who interupt me at home to press their beliefs as well. The people with the biggest problems in this regard are those who go against the philosophy of "Live and Let Live." As I have said, you are a zealot, and zealotry is often not met with understanding and respect.

This post is about one of the most reprehensible religions out there, and I added why leave it at Scientology, which everyone agrees is bogus, and leave out all the others? troutman asked the same question...yet you never hammered on him at all.

To the best of my knowledge, Troutman hasnt point blanked called my beliefs a lie.

Anda question: why did you feel the need to add others into this discussion? Why were you unable to leave the discussion at scientology alone?

Like I said earlier...be spiritual if you want....dance to a sun or moon...love animals or plants...help the planet...love your fellow man...but dont tell me you are any better of a person whatsoever because you follow a goD. That is the most bogus statement that can possibly be made.

And an equally bogus statement is to tell me you are better because you do not follow a God. Also, I have never suggested I was better than you.

Every Atheist I know does wonderful deeds for man...donating thousands if not millions of dollars to great causes..

So? Millions of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Agnostics, and et ceteras do wonderful things for man as well, and donates millions if not billionds of dollars to great causes. The only thing you argue here is that atheists can be as civic-minded as theists can.

we also teach our children the truth...dont believe in fairy tales or ghosts.

You teach your children your beliefs, nothing more. As I have stated a dozen times in this thread, you hold no monopoly on the truth.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Troutman, Cowperson et al do not invade every single religious thread to push their beliefs.

Well you havent paid attention to earlier threads then. You simply dont like me and prefer to attack my posts. Go for it if it makes you a better person.



I accept that the beliefs of a Christian are as valid as the beliefs of an athiest. Both are as valid as my own beliefs. My comments throughout this thread have been specific to your argument that religion is the root of all evil. This entire debate goes beyond one religion.

If you dont mind copying and pasting where Ive suggested its the "root of all evil". You once again simply read into what I say. Personally I dont buy into religion at all. I find it personally and morally repulsive to teach children lies. You can bury your head in the sand all you want and sit on your fence all day. The debate stays firmly entrenched on religion and what it stands for....lies.


And I respect your conviction in your beliefs. And FWIW, I have very little respect for Mormon and Jehovahs Witnesses who interupt me at home to press their beliefs as well. The people with the biggest problems in this regard are those who go against the philosophy of "Live and Let Live." As I have said, you are a zealot, and zealotry is often not met with understanding and respect.

You dont respect my beliefs whatsoever. If you get off on calling me a zealot so be it...that means my posts are getting through to you...and perhaps others as well. My pulpit for the most part is right here, I dont get my own TV Channel, Chruch, synagogue, temple etc etc to say what I want. If you dont want to hear what I have to say put me on ignore...it wouldnt bother me in the least considering you have nothing to offer. Color me ZEALOT!!

To the best of my knowledge, Troutman hasnt point blanked called my beliefs a lie.

What are your beliefs? LOL If its letting religion be, then I dont think you have read much of what troutman has written in this post or others. troutman is much further entrenched in Humanist ideals than I...but we share exactly the same thoughts on religion. Once again you single my posts out because Im the visible entity in your mind. That is ok with me, it is what I fully intend to do.

Anda question: why did you feel the need to add others into this discussion? Why were you unable to leave the discussion at scientology alone?

LOL..well why pick one and leave others out when they are all the same? What difference does it make to you? You have suggested you dont follow what they offer anyways. Is your father a Pastor or a Priest? Do you feel the need to protect them? Cant they protect themselves? Do you have answers they dont have?

And an equally bogus statement is to tell me you are better because you do not follow a God. Also, I have never suggested I was better than you.

What a moronic statement. You once again see red when I post and read into something that you want to see or hear. Go back to bed and get some shuteye. I simply said that man is inherantly good...that man does not need religion to be good or to be positive role models. It was YOU that suggested otherwise. That makes YOU intolerant of my secular beliefs. Every post you make attacking my position suggests you believe you are better than I, when its painfully obvious you dont even have a position to back up..

So? Millions of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Agnostics, and et ceteras do wonderful things for man as well, and donates millions if not billionds of dollars to great causes. The only thing you argue here is that atheists can be as civic-minded as theists can.

Really? Is that what I said? Are you sure..I mean really really sure thats what I said...or is it something else talking in your head?

You teach your children your beliefs, nothing more. As I have stated a dozen times in this thread, you hold no monopoly on the truth.

Did you let us all know what the truth really is? Where did I suggest I held the monopoly on truth? Its the Christians that suggest there DEFINATELY is a GOD or the SON OF GOD. Seems like they are the ones wanting us to buy in, dont you think? You seem to want to hold the monopoly on this thread...Ive spent more time jacking your threads then talking to anyone else. The facts Jack are this...you simply dont like me....you simply dont matter because you havent taken a firm position, regardless of what you yak endlessly about.

[Vulcan]

[quote=Cheese;595641]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

From my perspective, you either know or don't know.

Lots of people, like cheese and others, pretend to know but their thinking breaks down when it comes to offering anything practical.[/quote]

So based on your comment...please feel free to offer us Atheists something to bite on...something practical.

You've got mail.

[Resolute 14]

And here we are, right back at square one with you posting the same circular arguments that you always do. I like the persecution complex you threw in to this post, it was a nice touch.

If you need to believe I hate you to get yourself through the day Cheese, then I am glad I can help make your life that much more tolerable. But while I do find you to be one of the greatest hypocrites on this forum, I neither like nor hate you personally. Frankly, outside of this thread, you really dont matter either way.

However, you can't exacty argue that I am stating I am better than you by attacking your position and not realize that you are trying to state you are better than I, or anyone else here, by attacking my/their position.

Your final comment only shows your intolerance, arrogance and self-righteousness. Presumably these are all positive traits in your dream of an inherently good mankind.

[White Doors]

Cheese is just an atheist do he can can get laid by his woman.
It's all done for sex. I can respect that.

[northernflame]

Richard Dawkins has just released his newest offering "The God Delusion" in which he categorizes religious beliefs on a continimum according to how probable one believes the existence of God to be:

1. Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God.
2. Defacto thest. Very high probability but short of 100 per cent.
3. Technically agnostic but leaning toward theism. Higher than 50% probability but not very high.
4. Exactly 50 per cent. Completely impartial agnostic.
5. Lower than 50% but not very low. Technically agnostic but leaning toward atheism.
6. Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist.
7. Strong atheist.

As Dawkins notes, catergory 7 is probably pretty empty, but is included to balance out category 1, which is "highly populated."

For the life of me I can't figure out how any reasonable person could be anything other than a category 6. But then again, as Dawkin illustrates througout his interesting book, it's not polite to question peoples' faith in God.

Anyway, it's a great read and I highly recommended for both believers and non-believers alike.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

And here we are, right back at square one with you posting the same circular arguments that you always do. I like the persecution complex you threw in to this post, it was a nice touch.

If you need to believe I hate you to get yourself through the day Cheese, then I am glad I can help make your life that much more tolerable. But while I do find you to be one of the greatest hypocrites on this forum, I neither like nor hate you personally. Frankly, outside of this thread, you really dont matter either way.

However, you can't exacty argue that I am stating I am better than you by attacking your position and not realize that you are trying to state you are better than I, or anyone else here, by attacking my/their position.

Your final comment only shows your intolerance, arrogance and self-righteousness. Presumably these are all positive traits in your dream of an inherently good mankind.

LOL..right on brother...say hallelujah!

[northernflame]

You are suggesting that god does not exist, yet you cant prove it. So now you want to chastise others for failing to do what you yourself has failed to do, then move on?

What utter hypocricy.

The irony is that your argument is 100% faith based, and you dont realize it. As has been mentioned, you can no more prove that God does not exist than a religious believer can prove he does. People believe what they believe. Only the truely arrogant and closed minded chastise others for their beliefs.

I gather your lack of a response to my last comment is a confirmation that you prefer to remain in your cocoon of ignorance?

You are correct of course, you can't 100% prove that God does or doesn't exist. But that's the case in every single scientific endeavour undertaken.

My only issue with a great majority of theists that I know personaly is that they invoke scientific principles only when it suits them, the rest of the time they simply ignore them.

For instance, if I were to proclaim to you that, say, right now, at this very moment, there is a seven headed cat walking in front of my apartment.

Can you prove that there isn't? No. But you would probably be quite safe in assuming that the liklihood of this is so small as to be unbelievable. And you would be correct in your assessment and I am sure you would feel more than comfortable with openly questioning me about it, despite the fact that if I see the seven headed cat it must obviously be apart of my believe structure.

Now, turn it around and somebody tells me that there exsits a super-human, supernatural intelligence who deliberately designed the universe and everything in it, including humans. And then suppose I tell you that, you are entitled to your own beliefs, but to be honest in all likelihood the probability of such a deity existing, when you stop to think about it, must be close to zero. How would you react? Well, most the of the theists I know react defensively and resort to suggesting that atheists are faith based in thier beliefs as well.

Well,no, actually it's not faith-based, unless you are willing to accpet the fact that every once in a while I see a seven-headed cat walk by my apartment window.

[Antithesis]

These arguments/discussions always strike me as a bit silly. Religion or lack thereof is something that people get so upset about and wrapped up in that neither can see each other's argument.

I feel that theists, due to the nature of their beliefs, simply can not put themselves in the shoes of an atheist, and vice-versa. Would it be a contradiction in belief for either side to assume that the other side might have valid points?

Then again, there seem to be people like the esteemed evman who seem to come in here only to insult, berate, and belittle people whose beliefs differ from his own. I have to ask - what is missing from your life that you must attack the way you do?

The nature of your argument "those who believe are stupid, poor, and therefore worthless" is one of the more bigoted statements I have read on this site ... what about the person who is devout, and works toward scientific discovery out of desire to impress their so-called higher power? Is the atheistic EI leech somehow more valuable to society because of their lack of religious belief?

Let me use the best Jim Rome sound bite of all time, courtesy my pal Ozzie Guillen ...

"Psh. Please."

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

These arguments/discussions always strike me as a bit silly. Religion or lack thereof is something that people get so upset about and wrapped up in that neither can see each other's argument.

I feel that theists, due to the nature of their beliefs, simply can not put themselves in the shoes of an atheist, and vice-versa. Would it be a contradiction in belief for either side to assume that the other side might have valid points?

Then again, there seem to be people like the esteemed evman who seem to come in here only to insult, berate, and belittle people whose beliefs differ from his own. I have to ask - what is missing from your life that you must attack the way you do?

The nature of your argument "those who believe are stupid, poor, and therefore worthless" is one of the more bigoted statements I have read on this site ... what about the person who is devout, and works toward scientific discovery out of desire to impress their so-called higher power? Is the atheistic EI leech somehow more valuable to society because of their lack of religious belief?

Let me use the best Jim Rome sound bite of all time, courtesy my pal Ozzie Guillen ...

"Psh. Please."

For the most part I agree with you..except what I hilited. In fact, the vast majority of Atheists were devout theists at one time or another. They have a great and sometimes better understanding of theistic issues and dogma than the theist himself. The theist on the other hand is unlikely to have been a devout Atheist...unless we consider children under the age of 3 Atheists?

Oh and...I LOVE a great discussion on religion.

[Antithesis]

I can see what you're saying, Cheese. I guess a counter-point to your own might be ... if someone 'becomes' a devout Atheist, were they truly a theist? I don't even know if I'd agree with my own statement there but I suppose it could be the basis for further discussion.

[Dynamic]

I can only hope I live to see the day the it is PROVEN that god doesn't exsist. I am gonna laugh and laugh..................

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by skins

Studies have also shown that people with more money (or as I'm sure evman would say, people who are more "successful") generally tend to be less happy; they just want more money. People in lower income brackets tend to live happier lives.

I find those claims somewhat dubious. Do you have the links to those studies?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Faith is a matter of belief. What you believe in does not change its validity or importance.

It doesn't? That doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by Dynamic

I can only hope I live to see the day the it is PROVEN that god doesn't exsist. I am gonna laugh and laugh..................

Why is it not good enough for you to simply believe yourself correct?

Why would you find this result funny?

Would you not find it inflammatory if someone said that they couldn't wait for the day you found out that a god DID exist ... when that god was judging you at the end of your life? Let me point out to you that this is not what *I* am saying.

What does your post contribute to this discussion?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Are you suggesting that belief in a god is irrational?

Maybe not a god, but I would say belief in the Christian god is certainly irrational. Kierkegaard was convinced of that and he was a Christian and a philosopher.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by evman150

Free thinking and open mindedness are not the same thing.

I am a free thinker. I am free of the oppressive shackles that religion places on thought.

I think what I want to think, and not what someone else tells me to think. That is free thinking.

How free are you? How free are you of the assumptions that western culture has infused us with? How free are you to speak outside of the commonly used symbols of our language? Not that free...

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

If man creates religion to control the population (which is a theory I agree with)

Some would say that religion was created in order to create meaning for our suffering, to explain and justify it.

[FlamesFanInEdm]

Originally Posted by northernflame

You are correct of course, you can't 100% prove that God does or doesn't exist. But that's the case in every single scientific endeavour undertaken.

My only issue with a great majority of theists that I know personaly is that they invoke scientific principles only when it suits them, the rest of the time they simply ignore them.

For instance, if I were to proclaim to you that, say, right now, at this very moment, there is a seven headed cat walking in front of my apartment.

Can you prove that there isn't? No. But you would probably be quite safe in assuming that the liklihood of this is so small as to be unbelievable. And you would be correct in your assessment and I am sure you would feel more than comfortable with openly questioning me about it, despite the fact that if I see the seven headed cat it must obviously be apart of my believe structure.

Now, turn it around and somebody tells me that there exsits a super-human, supernatural intelligence who deliberately designed the universe and everything in it, including humans. And then suppose I tell you that, you are entitled to your own beliefs, but to be honest in all likelihood the probability of such a deity existing, when you stop to think about it, must be close to zero. How would you react? Well, most the of the theists I know react defensively and resort to suggesting that atheists are faith based in thier beliefs as well.

Well,no, actually it's not faith-based, unless you are willing to accpet the fact that every once in a while I see a seven-headed cat walk by my apartment window.

Well, if you want to tell me that everything that exists today came from nothing, with no planned purpose, and somehow ended up existing the way it does today, Im hardpressed to beleive you as well. I look at the complexity of the world surrounding us just like you do everyday and beleive that "to be honest in all likelihood the probability of this happening randomly, when you stop to think about it must be close to 0." Is not beleiving that the universe and all of its complexity just somehow came about similar to beleiving that a tornado could run thru a junkyard and out pops a fully functional airplane??? (Albeit, the weather system and everything that goes into creating a tornado and then all the junk would also have to magically evolve over time) How is this not faithbased?? Your magic solution is to just more time into the equation and itll work itself out. What about complex things like blood clotting, this process is a package, it cant gradually just come about step by step unless it had an end goal in mind, no?? http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe.html

Heres a site which attempts to explain better what Im talking about. Its got links by atheists to his claims as well. I guess you can decide which side you beleive. I tend to believe in a God, and not only for the reason above, its a personal decision and not any more irrational than believing that there is 100% no chance that a God could exist.

Then again, Im coming across defensive like you said theists would....
________
MERCEDES-BENZ GL-CLASS

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanInEdm

Is not beleiving that the universe and all of its complexity just somehow came about similar to beleiving that a tornado could run thru a junkyard and out pops a fully functional airplane???

No, it's not similar.