[PGT] Flames lose to Golden Knights 4-2

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I know you do ... but I don't see moving one of your top four dmen with your team on the cusp of a playoff spot as feasible.

You set up the season with all kind of cap space, you add no one of value in free agency, you don't add at the deadline ... all hints of thinking long term. But you don't guy a team that has earned a right to finish a season, especially if you believe the value will be equal or higher in the summer or at the next trade deadline.

And even if you're right that surplus of what was offered in March vs what will be offered this year has to be compared to the damage you do to a dressing room and the development of an organization.

One is asset value, the other is hard to measure but the value isn't zero.

This team was one of the lowest scoring teams in the entire league last year, that is not a recipe for playoff success. You’re a big numbers guy so I’m sure you saw that too. And honestly I don’t buy into the “damage to the dressing room” narrative at all, this team sucks as is and massively overperformed expectations. With or without Andersson they would have missed the playoffs, nothing gained or lost there. What breeds a winning culture? Winning. And you need talent and hard work for that, and we’re running on fumes in the talent department.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

This team was one of the lowest scoring teams in the entire league last year, that is not a recipe for playoff success. You’re a big numbers guy so I’m sure you saw that too. And honestly I don’t buy into the “damage to the dressing room” narrative at all, this team sucks as is and massively overperformed expectations. With or without Andersson they would have missed the playoffs, nothing gained or lost there. What breeds a winning culture? Winning. And you need talent and hard work for that, and we’re running on fumes in the talent department.

Yeah the lack of offence didn't get past me.

But they did win. That's the point. They got themselves into the mix despite not getting much help from above. I reward that.

You don't have to ... I'm good with that.

But I'm 100% sure the value in doing so isn't 0%.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

That’s still missing the point that players with term left on their contract fetched higher returns than rentals last year. The time to trade him was last year, now Conroy has put himself in a position of weakness for an asset that has been on a steady year over year decline. The roster on paper is not good, and so far they’re nailing expectations.

I think we can assume he makes decisions based on what he perceives to be the market value now, later and much later.

You could be 100% right but he still has to go with his read.

If he makes too many bad reads he's out of a job.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

That’s still missing the point that players with term left on their contract fetched higher returns than rentals last year. The time to trade him was last year, now Conroy has put himself in a position of weakness for an asset that has been on a steady year over year decline. The roster on paper is not good, and so far they’re nailing expectations.

Maybe. I have a hard time evaluating without knowing the offers. The rumored offers during the off-season (Vegas and Kings) didn't blow my socks off at all. That may be close to what they get, but I don't know I would have jumped on it.

But either way they didn't trade him. So now the question is trading him now v. later. And I'm outlining why trading him now is not ideal based on the typical dynamics in the market at this time of year.

We can continue to debate last year v. this year, but that argument has been had a few hundred times already.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think we can assume he makes decisions based on what he perceives to be the market value now, later and much later.

You could be 100% right but he still has to go with his read.

If he makes too many bad reads he's out of a job.

Of course he has to analyze based on perceived current values, however his boss is hopefully judging him based on more than that. If he was an employee of mine missing out on last years deadline would have been a huge black mark against Conroy. Missing the playoffs (given the flames relatively poor underlying numbers) and losing value on an asset is very poor management.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Still better odds than anyone else!

Even at 2, Tynan Lawrence would solve our #1 centre position issue.

If the Flames took Lawrence over Viggo Bjorck I would probably throw something through my tv.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Of course he has to analyze based on perceived current values, however his boss is hopefully judging him based on more than that. If he was an employee of mine missing out on last years deadline would have been a huge black mark against Conroy. Missing the playoffs (given the flames relatively poor underlying numbers) and losing value on an asset is very poor management.

Through your lens sure. You're assuming 1) there is no value in ripping up the room after they over achieved last season and 2) that there wouldn't be a higher value for the player after that.

I disagree with 1) and none of us know on 2)

Plus ... you don't think this was discussed internally?

Move Andersson now?

Well ...

What's the offer?
Do you think we destroy the room if we do it?
What will his value be in 3 months? 6 months?

Lets hold.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Of course he has to analyze based on perceived current values, however his boss is hopefully judging him based on more than that. If he was an employee of mine missing out on last years deadline would have been a huge black mark against Conroy. Missing the playoffs (given the flames relatively poor underlying numbers) and losing value on an asset is very poor management.

But it's based on what your goals were for him as a GM, those likely don't mimic Edwards goals.

Personally I think you can tell that Conroy doesn't actually fully agree with Edwards goal of playoffs but is also navigating it in a way that he thinks is going to help long term.

The cap room, back up goalie position, lack of major offseason acquisitions, none of that speaks to wanting to win now.

But he also can't make a move that obviously makes them worse right now like trading Andersson for futures in the offseason.

It's ####ty but it's sometimes the reality of working in corporations like this. Your executives will have short term goals that aren't actually what's best long term for your success...so you have to try to navigate the short term asks while not completely messing up the long term vision too.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

If the Flames took Lawrence over Viggo Bjorck I would probably throw something through my tv.

Not the frog I hope.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Not the frog I hope.

Never the frog! Possibly my neighbor two doors down who is an Oilers fan.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Through your lens sure. You're assuming 1) there is no value in ripping up the room after they over achieved last season and 2) that there wouldn't be a higher value for the player after that.

I disagree with 1) and none of us know on 2)

Plus ... you don't think this was discussed internally?

Move Andersson now?

Well ...

What's the offer?
Do you think we destroy the room if we do it?
What will his value be in 3 months? 6 months?

Lets hold.

I’m sure those discussions were had, but I believe one of 2 things happened to result in no trade last year.

1) Conroy wanted the feel good “keep the room together” and shoot for the playoffs. Basically using heart and not his brain. Or:

2) The directive from upper management was to go for it and try to make the playoffs and Conroy was handcuffed.

Either way someone was a bonehead and made a terrible call. I want to see the flames win a cup, I’m not convinced Conroys goal is a Stanley cup. I think his goal (or managements directive) is set significantly lower than that.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Still better odds than anyone else!

Even at 2, Tynan Lawrence would solve our #1 centre position issue.

I will leave you with this sobering thought: the Flames have NEVER won a draft lottery, never moved up even a single position in the draft as a result of a lottery. They have moved down a number of times, including the 2005 draft lottery in which they were tied for the 5th best odds of winning the Sidney Crosby sweepstakes and ended up dropping to 26th overall and Matt Pelech.

The NHL draft lottery is not the Flames' friend.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

I’m sure those discussions were had, but I believe one of 2 things happened to result in no trade last year.

1) Conroy wanted the feel good “keep the room together” and shoot for the playoffs. Basically using heart and not his brain. Or:

2) The directive from upper management was to go for it and try to make the playoffs and Conroy was handcuffed.

Either way someone was a bonehead and made a terrible call. I want to see the flames win a cup, I’m not convinced Conroys goal is a Stanley cup. I think his goal (or managements directive) is set significantly lower than that.

I think it’s pretty obvious it is #2 and he would have had a way bigger black mark from his boss if he sold Andersson amid a chance at playoffs. If he was really bought into this team then I think we would have seen a lot more offseason action

[Tsawwassen]

Post game links
https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...-b3d42ede3889/
https://www.espn.com/nhl/game/_/game...knights-flames
https://www.espn.com/nhl/recap/_/gameId/401802404
https://www.foxsports.com/articles/n...s-picks-oct-14
https://fieldlevelmedia.com/news/jac...s-past-flames/
https://flamesnation.ca/news/instant...rom-the-flames
https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/calgar...third-straight

[sch19lks]

Originally Posted by InternationalVillager

Yes - I do. I hope they lose every single night but I still watch the games.

Gavin Mckenna is the plan and your job as an organization is to maximize that possibility. EVEN if you don’t get #1, you’ll get #2, #3, #4.

That’s the way that the NHL is structured now. It’s the only way back to relevance is to draft your own Eichel, McDavid, Mackinnon, Matthews etc.

Be a fan however you want, I can’t imagine being happy when the Flames lose.

I get where you’re coming from, but that’s a loser’s attitude dude

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

I will leave you with this sobering thought: the Flames have NEVER won a draft lottery, never moved up even a single position in the draft as a result of a lottery. They have moved down multiple times, including the 2005 draft lottery in which they were tied for the 5th best odds of winning the Sidney Crosby sweepstakes and ended up dropping to 26th overall and Matt Pelech.

The NHL draft lottery is not the Flames' friend.

Oh, so one time - during a post lock-out special draft?

I will leave you with this sobering thought: the Flames have won 5 playoff rounds since 1989, and only 2 in the last 20 years.

The Flames have never had top-3 odds in a modern NHL draft lottery.