[Rumour] LeBrun: Flames to add secondary scoring. Friedman: A lot of people think Toffoli

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Mass_nerder

Our 2023 1st should be 100% off the table. If Gaudreau leaves, we're going to drop off a cliff, and missing a chance at Beddard would be brutal.

Yeah, can't trade the 2023 1st unless they are confident in getting Gaudreau and Tkachuk re-signed.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Mass_nerder

Our 2023 1st should be 100% off the table. If Gaudreau leaves, we're going to drop off a cliff, and missing a chance at Beddard would be brutal.

It can also be protected

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

I just love this line of thinking. Why is Dvorak far more likely to improve? They are less than a year and a half apart in age and at the very least Monahan's production can be directly tied to injuries and playing in the bottom six with little talent to work with. Lewis/Dube remain his most common linemates. I like Monahan's chances of bouncing back far more with a greater opportunity and health on his side (fingers crossed) than Dvorak magically finding his offensive touch after six NHL seasons. What's Dvorak's excuse? His career high is 38 points. He's played exclusively in the top six in Montreal all season with far superior linemates (Anderson, Drouin, Toffoli) and he's still struggling to outproduce Monahan.

Absolutely right!

And the objective idea that Monahan isn't worth a 1st + 2nd as Dvorak was is irrelevant. We need to win now while we have the current pieces in place. Adding Dvorak doesn't help achieve that today and is at best a side step. It's likely a downgrade. We should not have to pay extra for that swap- I don't even think we should entertain it.

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, he’s a Sutter player in that he played for Sutter. His interviews about Sutter are a bit mixed. He certainly respects him and credits him for their success. But it’s also clear he didn’t think Sutter was fun to play for.

I know he won’t be happy to be traded from Montreal. He said he was “destined” to be a Hab.

I think most players on competitive teams don't care about "fun to play for"...but maybe "made us work our asses off, believe in ourselves and go through walls for...and guess what...we won a Cup!" might be a bigger attraction?

Just guessing.

[genetic_phreek]

Nvm

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Plenty of teams make two players at 10 million work. we can too.

This is a pretty big exaggeration.

Teams with two or more $10-million players on the roster:

Toronto, Chicago, Los Angeles.

The Hawks and Kings did all their winning before signing those fat contracts, and neither team has gone beyond the first round of the playoffs since. The Leafs haven't won a playoff series in almost 20 years.

I would be extremely reluctant to use any of those three rosters as a model.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

I just love this line of thinking. Why is Dvorak far more likely to improve? They are less than a year and a half apart in age and at the very least Monahan's production can be directly tied to injuries and playing in the bottom six with little talent to work with. Lewis/Dube remain his most common linemates. I like Monahan's chances of bouncing back far more with a greater opportunity and health on his side (fingers crossed) than Dvorak magically finding his offensive touch after six NHL seasons. What's Dvorak's excuse? His career high is 38 points. He's played exclusively in the top six in Montreal all season with far superior linemates (Anderson, Drouin, Toffoli) and he's still struggling to outproduce Monahan.

You need to look at the fit though. Read some articles about Dvorak

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/christi...ulture/sn-amp/

Bergevin said there’s a lot to like about Dvorak, who had 17 goals and 14 assists in 56 games last season.

“He’s a responsible two-way centre, he is not going to be the player that is gonna wow you, but his detail to the game is very good. He plays a honest game,” the GM said.

https://thehockeynews.com/.amp/news/...e-out-the-door

Sportsnet's Elliotte Friedman speculated Dvorak could be shopped between now and the start of this season. “He's a physical banging center who can get points. Those guys are hard to find. There's lots of teams out there that really like him.”


To me that sounds like the type of player who would fit Darryl Sutter hockey. Points are comparable but Dvorak plays a two way game and would fit into the style of this club.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

I think most players on competitive teams don't care about "fun to play for"...but maybe "made us work our asses off, believe in ourselves and go through walls for...and guess what...we won a Cup!" might be a bigger attraction?

Just guessing.

Like I said, Toffoli said he appreciated what Sutter got him. And it’s not like he hates him or anything. But I think enjoying work is fairly important. I know players have specifically included one particular coach (no longer in the league) in their NTC.

Toffoli has no NTC so it’s not too relevant. I just don’t think you can assume every former Sutter player is dying to play for him again. I know Doughty wouldn’t.

[dissentowner]

Everyone knows I love Dvorak, I think he is a very good talent who on a good team would break out. Ideally we would trade Backlund instead of Monahan. Monahan is a PP specialist who might still bounce back, Backlund has lost a step defensively and is a total buzzkill on offense. Backlund, Dube, 2022 1st, and a prospect like Francis for Toffoli and Dvorak.

Gaudreau/Lindholm/Tkachuk
Mangiapane/Monahan/Toffoli
Lucic/Dvorak/Coleman
Ritchie/Ruzicka/Lewis

[Vinny01]

I would be fine with either but I think Backlund’s 2 way game on the third line would be more valuable.

If Monahan is retained he could play with Toffoli and perhaps giving him a legit top 6 forward would help him with even strength scoring?

Either Monahan or Backlund I would gladly move for Dvorak.

[hillspeak]

I don't see Montreal interested in Backlund or Monahan at this point in their careers if they start to retool.

One other thing to remember is Backlund has always been a second half guy.

This may be a bad suggestion, but what about a package to Montreal for Dvorak, Toffoli and throw in for a package that includes Mangiapane, Dube, Valamaki and Florida's 2nd round pick this year which is almost a 3rd rounder?

Dube is not playing up to his current salary and Mangiapane is going to command a raise next year. I like bread but I think he is at the top of where he can be. Had a great start but has levelled off and playing his game now.

With Toffoli and Dvorak you are set for a few years salary wise and they will both be happy with the tax break.

What bother me though is if Tre was rumoured to be in on Toffoli when he was traded to Canucks, why were we not in on him during Free Agency?

[Vinny01]

Not interested in moving Mangiapane this year. Monahan is the money that needs to go out the door. He turns into a rental next year and is a reclamation project. Dube and the picks/prospects is what would be of interest to Montreal

[Firebot]

Flames are looking for secondary scoring, and your solution is to trade our top goal scorer?

Mangiapane has more goals then Toffoli and Dvorak combined.

[agulati]

I don’t see the team making any major subtractions from the current lineup, in trades. Why mess with the team chemistry that is working. The only possibilities are Dube, Zadorov or Monahan (the latter two mainly being for cap reasons)

Mangiapane could be a possible move, because of his RFA status, but that is more of an off-season move, if at all.

[djsFlames]

Re-uniting Monahan and Toffoli could be interesting.

He checks too many boxes. Seems like a fit. I could see it happening.

The question is if we can swing the trade without giving up Pelletier in the process.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

Genuine question: Why do you guys say that (you and the likes)?

Brad already locked up that money in Coleman to be the 2nd line RW. Not sure about the cap management of getting another 2nd line RW with term. The wingers on that 2nd line aren't really the problem anyway. We need better centers I think.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Flames are looking for secondary scoring, and your solution is to trade our top goal scorer?

Mangiapane has more goals then Toffoli and Dvorak combined.

You are trading for what you think will happen in the future, not what has happened in the past. Mangiapagne came out of the gates on fire, but has cooled dramatically. Is he going to regain that early scoring touch from October and November (15 goals in 22 games), or is he going to be more like he's been of late (5 goals in 20 games)? You also have to consider what the long game is and whether he's a player you can fit into the salary structure? Can you keep all three of Gaudreau, Tkachuk, and Mangiapane, or are you better off trading for two guys with term and signed for less than $4.5M so you can afford two of the three? Tough decision, but something has to give.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Everyone knows I love Dvorak, I think he is a very good talent who on a good team would break out. Ideally we would trade Backlund instead of Monahan. Monahan is a PP specialist who might still bounce back, Backlund has lost a step defensively and is a total buzzkill on offense. Backlund, Dube, 2022 1st, and a prospect like Francis for Toffoli and Dvorak.

Gaudreau/Lindholm/Tkachuk
Mangiapane/Monahan/Toffoli
Lucic/Dvorak/Coleman
Ritchie/Ruzicka/Lewis

I like that proposal too much for the Flames, so probably lopsided but I have been on the trade Backlund train for a while now.

[CroFlames]

I'd love to have Phil Kessel so we can call him Hot Dog Phil in every GDT, GT and PGT from here until Cup glory.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

You need to look at the fit though. Read some articles about Dvorak

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/christi...ulture/sn-amp/

Bergevin said there’s a lot to like about Dvorak, who had 17 goals and 14 assists in 56 games last season.

“He’s a responsible two-way centre, he is not going to be the player that is gonna wow you, but his detail to the game is very good. He plays a honest game,” the GM said.

https://thehockeynews.com/.amp/news/...e-out-the-door

Sportsnet's Elliotte Friedman speculated Dvorak could be shopped between now and the start of this season. “He's a physical banging center who can get points. Those guys are hard to find. There's lots of teams out there that really like him.”


To me that sounds like the type of player who would fit Darryl Sutter hockey. Points are comparable but Dvorak plays a two way game and would fit into the style of this club.

I understand who Dvorak is as a player and do agree that he would excel here, although I do think his all around game is heavily overrated. I don't however believe he is a better hockey player than Sean Monahan and certainly not to the degree of top end prospects or high picks. Bring in a legitimate top six right winger and slot him next to a properly casted Monahan and Mangiapane and you have that secondary scoring you are looking for.