[Rumour] LeBrun: Flames to add secondary scoring. Friedman: A lot of people think Toffoli

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

No way. Pelletier is 1. one of the best prospects in the AHL, and 2. French.
If we trade pelletier to MTL it is for Toffoli 50% retained and some sort of pick. Even then it kinda stinks.

Trading Pelletier should be off the table IMO. He looks like he will be a solid 2nd line player who is cost controlled. Moving him to acquire a player that is 9 years old is awful asset management.

Pelletier should only be moved if it's part of an Eichel or Stone (re-signed) level deal.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Dude Where's Makar?

Adding another RHS one-timer to our top 6 ranks would be unreal. Toffoli shows up in big games. I remember him being absolutely dominant for the Canucks in his short stint. He was lights our for Montreal last season and playoffs and has the best point percentage and +/- on a terrible Habs team this year.

It would not only improve our 2nd line, but our 2nd PP unit too!

I think he fits this team like a glove, personally.
I would give up more to have retention of 30-50% too

Toffoli would be a good fit for a variety of reasons, many that you've mentioned. Bumping a guy like Ritchie down the lineup or out entirely would be a huge win.

If you could get decent salary retention I wouldn't shy away from Valimaki + 2nd or a Zary + prospect type of deal here. I could even get behind a 1st straight up as it is looking increasingly likely this will be a 20-32 overall pick this year. Toffoli has term and can play up and down the lineup....well worth a decent asset in return.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Absolutely.

However I've also seen "Treliving is the GM" arguments about the same players when they were signed.

The inconsistency isn't from you, but it's amazing how loose people can be with when to attribute credit or assign blame.

It's very fair to assume Sutter had input on guys he knows well (Gudbranson from Anaheim, Lewis from L.A., Richardson from L.A.'s pressbox) but at the end of the day Tre IS the GM. He's allowed to have the final say. And I doubt Sutter had much aggressive input on Zadorov or Coleman, since he has no history with either. Of course I'm sure he was still consulted, judt as Bill Peters was involved with the signing of Austin Czarnik.

Just as with Nik Grossman though, a GM can't let the coach decide the roster. Gulutzan's emotional manipulation of the roster over Grossman being waived was a low point in Tre's career BECAUSE grossman should never have been signed regardless of Gulutzan's advocacy.

Sutter can't be building the roster, and Treliving can't be setting the lines (which was a rumour towards the end of Geoff Ward's tenure). That boundary should be discrete.

[genetic_phreek]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

Genuine question: Why do you guys say that (you and the likes)?

He's coming off a career year last season and turning 30 in April, isn't a great skater, isn't a play driver. We're already full of slow skating players. Adding to that, we're already a cap team. If we were a faster team, didn't have anchor contracts, then sure I'd love to add Toffoli.

I get the history with Monahan, Sutter, RHS. Salary is pretty good too. Just all the other factors I listed, and the cost to acquire as well. I always hate buying high on players.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

1. I don't think there's a way/trade that makes sense where you can acquire both Toffoli and Dvorak in this season without shipping out a salary like Monahan. MAYBE, maybe Dube+ right at the trade deadline, but I'm thinking the +s would have to be interesting.
2. Dvorak+Toffoli is in no way comparable to either Tkachuk/johnny from a contribution to winning team perspective. That better not be the plan.

I posted this in either this thread or the trade one but Dvorak+Toffoli is cap neutral to Dube+Monahan

If the Flames add Pelletier and 1-2 of their 2nds (or their 1st) I think that deal is pretty fair for the Habs. They add a top French Canadian prospect who likely finishes the season on the big team. Dube gets a fresh start and they hope Monahan can be rebuilt into a movable asset next season. Maybe the Habs send back Kulak so this is a one stop shop for the deadline?

The Flames would have at least 2 years where Toffoli, Dvorak, Lindholm, Coleman are all top 6 forwards making less than $5M per. Should allow them to afford 2 other forwards making 9-10M in Johnny and Tkachuk.

Salaries like Backlund and Lucic may need to be moved in the summer or Mangiapane is traded for futures. It could possibly work though

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I posted this in either this thread or the trade one but Dvorak+Toffoli is cap neutral to Dube+Monahan

If the Flames add Pelletier and 1-2 of their 2nds (or their 1st) I think that deal is pretty fair for the Habs. They add a top French Canadian prospect who likely finishes the season on the big team. Dube gets a fresh start and they hope Monahan can be rebuilt into a movable asset next season. Maybe the Habs send back Kulak so this is a one stop shop for the deadline?

The Flames would have at least 2 years where Toffoli, Dvorak, Lindholm, Coleman are all top 6 forwards making less than $5M per. Should allow them to afford 2 other forwards making 9-10M in Johnny and Tkachuk.

Salaries like Backlund and Lucic may need to be moved in the summer or Mangiapane is traded for futures. It could possibly work though

Why on earth would we have to add? Monahan is as good or better than Dvorak today. He has been truly awful this season.

I think this is a bad plan. It makes us worse this season, when we need to be pushing as hard as possible this season.

[Dude Where's Makar?]

I don't think Dvorak is that much of an upgrade on Monahan either. I'd much rather look at dumping Monahan's 6.3 (or whatever me makes) in the offseason than adding Dvorak for 4.45 over 3 more seasons.

We need a play driving C on our 2nd line, not another average skating 3rd liner.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Why on earth would we have to add? Monahan is as good or better than Dvorak today. He has been truly awful this season.

I think this is a bad plan. It makes us worse this season, when we need to be pushing as hard as possible this season.

Well then the Flames should trade Monahan for a 1st+2nd like the Yotes did for Dcvorak.

He has a higher points per game on a far worse team than Monahan this year who is only scoring when given prime minutes on the power play playing with the best line in hockey.

Toffoli and Dvorak makes this team better this year than Monahan and Dube

[Jiri Hrdina]

Dvorak though is far more likely to improve from this point forward while Monahan is more likely to not improve or decline further.
That has to be factored in.
Dvorak is a great buy low candidate if you think he's got something more. He's always been a bit of an analytics darling if I recall.
But everything has gone wrong in Montreal this year.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Boy oh boy are we ever defensive here when it comes to the GM. My comment was more made to Jiri's comment of those moves being criticized in that anyone criticizing Treliving should realize Darryl was likely involved in the decision making.

Super defensive!

[Max Cow Disease]

Originally Posted by blankall

Trading Pelletier should be off the table IMO. He looks like he will be a solid 2nd line player who is cost controlled. Moving him to acquire a player that is 9 years old is awful asset management.

Pelletier should only be moved if it's part of an Eichel or Stone (re-signed) level deal.

Trading away quality assets for 9 year olds. Classic Treliving.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by blankall

Trading Pelletier should be off the table IMO. He looks like he will be a solid 2nd line player who is cost controlled. Moving him to acquire a player that is 9 years old is awful asset management.

Pelletier should only be moved if it's part of an Eichel or Stone (re-signed) level deal.

But a 9 year old would have plenty of hockey ahead of him. Sure it's going a weee bit pre-mature, but I'd still say it's a good managing of assets.

[CliffFletcher]

We should dispense with the idea of Monahan being an asset in any deadline deal. The Flames are going to have to give up assets to move him, and that sort of deal happens in the offseason.

[mile]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1491508070446415872

https://twitter.com/user/status/1491507218675646474

Full clip about Toffoli:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1491500107027599368

[Vinny01]

Dvorak played with Tkachuk and was drafted by Maloney.

4.45M for the next 3 years. If there is some upside there it could be a great add up the middle.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Important distinction.
Friedman is reporting on a rumor of Toffoli to Calgary
Marek is simply wondering out loud about Dvorak. There's no actual rumors about him.

But it often gets reported the same as "Toffoli and Dvorak" to Calgary.

[joejoe3]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Important distinction.
Friedman is reporting on a rumor of Toffoli to Calgary
Marek is simply wondering out loud about Dvorak. There's no actual rumors about him.

But it often gets reported the same as "Toffoli and Dvorak" to Calgary.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Toffoli at 50% + Dvorak for Valimaki, Monahan, cond. 2022 1st/2nd (Flames make conf. Finals, if not, 2022 2nd (FLA) given to MTL along with CGY's 2nd) + 2023 1st

[Mass_nerder]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Toffoli at 50% + Dvorak for Valimaki, Monahan, cond. 2022 1st/2nd (Flames make conf. Finals, if not, 2022 2nd (FLA) given to MTL along with CGY's 2nd) + 2023 1st

Our 2023 1st should be 100% off the table. If Gaudreau leaves, we're going to drop off a cliff, and missing a chance at Beddard would be brutal.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Dvorak though is far more likely to improve from this point forward while Monahan is more likely to not improve or decline further.
That has to be factored in.
Dvorak is a great buy low candidate if you think he's got something more. He's always been a bit of an analytics darling if I recall.
But everything has gone wrong in Montreal this year.

I just love this line of thinking. Why is Dvorak far more likely to improve? They are less than a year and a half apart in age and at the very least Monahan's production can be directly tied to injuries and playing in the bottom six with little talent to work with. Lewis/Dube remain his most common linemates. I like Monahan's chances of bouncing back far more with a greater opportunity and health on his side (fingers crossed) than Dvorak magically finding his offensive touch after six NHL seasons. What's Dvorak's excuse? His career high is 38 points. He's played exclusively in the top six in Montreal all season with far superior linemates (Anderson, Drouin, Toffoli) and he's still struggling to outproduce Monahan.