The "sport - not a sport" debate completely misses the point. It's an arbitrary label. Do you watch hockey because it qualifies as a sport? Or because it's fast-paced and entertaining?
At the end of the day, any competition where:
Player showcase some sort of skill or ability against one another
The player who shows superior skill or ability generally wins
People enjoy watching
is as legitimate as any other. That coin flipping example is an absurd strawman - nobody is saying "reflexes > 0 => sport"
Its not a sport though, its certainly a competition but more comparable to the cyber olympics or hacker competitions. Indeed, winning in video games is about figuring out the weaknesses in the program/ai and taking advantage of them. This is the case even with a human opponents as there is always a programatical component. Very impressive stuff, but not a sport.
Last edited by Flamenspiel; 05-31-2018 at 09:14 AM.
I don't follow esports, but since you're kind of a dick about it.
I believe hockey, soccer, football, fortnite, league of legends, rocket league are all popular esports.
Wait, so I make an assertion, and people take me to task over it, I ask for examples while supplying my own, people take me to task over my examples, again,while not supplying there own, and I'M a dick? Get bent.
Those are games, not different sports. That's like saying halfpipe, slope style, and down hill (racing) are different sports you can do on a snowboard. They are different snowboarding events, but the sport is called snowboarding.
My point is that you can use all those catagories to group types of sports together. Not so with "e-sports". It is a category that separates it from other sports,and to which no other sports applies. Which is why I am asking for another example of an e-sport. If there is no other sports that can apply to that category, why is there a category? More aptly, if it can't be compared to other sports, is it a sport?
You can quivel over what to call it, but a sport it is not, no matter how many people (short of a majority) choose to call it that.
I love vids. I think that people that make money doing it have a good thing going. I wish it was a thing when I was racking up 1000 trick combos in THPS2. But again, I think e-sports is a buzz word, nothing more..
I only need to ask 2 questions
1. What about this definition doesn't apply to E-Sports:
"an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment."
2. What threat are you fighting against?
I'm one of the first to balk at Ice Dancing in the Olympics. I jeered at Speedwalking, and I raised an eyebrow at Golfers talking about athleticism.
But every time I observe the sport I learn about the athletes and their journeys. After watching the fierce competition unfold, I see sport. The category, the physical exertion, the movement, the seating position doesn't matter. There are sports in the past you've never heard of, and there are sports coming you don't predict.
But for competition, skill, and physical ability I have no problem allowing video games into the sporting world. It might not be your favourite, but you're probably not following Gabriella Papadakis too closely this season are you?
Wait, so I make an assertion, and people take me to task over it, I ask for examples while supplying my own, people take me to task over my examples, again,while not supplying there own, and I'M a dick? Get bent.
Those are games, not different sports. That's like saying halfpipe, slope style, and down hill (racing) are different sports you can do on a snowboard. They are different snowboarding events, but the sport is called snowboarding.
You're coming across as a little snippy, hence why I said you're kind of being a dick about it.
So call it esports and then from there you can have different "sports" like sports, shooter, fighting, racing, strategy. Does that make it better for you?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calgaryblood
Looks like you'll need one long before I will. May I suggest deflection king?
Wait, so I make an assertion, and people take me to task over it, I ask for examples while supplying my own, people take me to task over my examples, again,while not supplying there own, and I'M a dick? Get bent.
Those are games, not different sports. That's like saying halfpipe, slope style, and down hill (racing) are different sports you can do on a snowboard. They are different snowboarding events, but the sport is called snowboarding.
You can't write posts like this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesFanTrev
Okay, a few bad examples while I was parked at a red light.
Ski jumping, sky diving, snowboarding, wake boarding...
How's your list comming?
...and then throw up your arms wondering why people think you're being a dick with your opinion. You write that with a smarmy attitude, there's no two ways about it. You really think you're right about your point, I get that. But you're choosing your own words to communicate it.
Also, no one has taken you to task over anything.
I posted the definition of 'Sport' and you objected to it a little over an hour ago. I don't think anyone has given you a modicum of a hard time this morning, besides someone pointing out you're coming off as a dick. Don't be a victim.
1. What about this definition doesn't apply to E-Sports:
"an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment."
2. What threat are you fighting against?
I'm one of the first to balk at Ice Dancing in the Olympics. I jeered at Speedwalking, and I raised an eyebrow at Golfers talking about athleticism.
But every time I observe the sport I learn about the athletes and their journeys. After watching the fierce competition unfold, I see sport. The category, the physical exertion, the movement, the seating position doesn't matter. There are sports in the past you've never heard of, and there are sports coming you don't predict.
But for competition, skill, and physical ability I have no problem allowing video games into the sporting world. It might not be your favourite, but you're probably not following Gabriella Papadakis too closely this season are you?
In the end, I really only have to repeat question #2
I don't know, I guess it seems to me that the idea of sports is athletic in nature, and e-sports is actually the antithesis of that. Again, I actually have no problem with vids, or people that make a living doing that. Good on em. But this concept of calling a video game a sport, and the people that play them an "athlete" cheapens the term, at least to me.
I'm not a professional athlete, but I played football, rugby, baseball, and swam competitively as a kid. What I took from those activities was a sense of team work, discipline, fair play and dedication. I imagine that there is some of the same principles that could be derived from people competting in competitive gaming. I guess what I dislike most that it's possible to be a part of a team that never actually meets or competes in person and misses out on the social education that I experienced on actual sports teams. The long bus rides, the dirt being mashed into open cuts, sweat stinging your eyes as you go to war against your opponent. Supporting each other on the equally long bus ride home when you come up short. To me, specifically, thats probably the biggest part of my issue.
But now that I have my own kids, when they are of age, they will absolutely be enrolled in sports to learn those core beliefs that have carried me a long way in this life. When they come home with a permission slip to be part of their high school e-sports team, I will re-evalute my thoughts on the subject then. For now, all I can use to set my postion is my personal experiences.
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You're coming across as a little snippy, hence why I said you're kind of being a dick about it.
So call it esports and then from there you can have different "sports" like sports, shooter, fighting, racing, strategy. Does that make it better for you?
Yes, quite a bit actually. It's a valid point at least, which is all I was asking for.
Watching the amazing goal scored by Gareth Bale in last week's champions league final will always trump watching some dude named FifaKing187 do the same thing using a digital Bale on a screen. I understand the interest in gaming -- I love the medium as well, but its just not the same as watching highly trained athletes do what they do best.
You will never hear about an esports players parents having to drive him to the rink at 5 in the morning through blizzards, having the discipline to maintain a healthy diet and training routine for years, dealing with physical pain and injury in the same way.
And then creating magic in a real physical space when the stakes are high -- not recreating magic with a canned animation by pressing a button faster than the opponent. Its just not the same.
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A few weeks after crashing head-first into the boards (denting his helmet and being unable to move for a little while) following a hit from behind by Bob Errey, the Calgary Flames player explains:
"I was like Christ, lying on my back, with my arms outstretched, crucified"
-- Frank Musil - Early January 1994
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Watching the amazing goal scored by Gareth Bale in last week's champions league final will always trump watching some dude named FifaKing187 do the same thing using a digital Bale on a screen. I understand the interest in gaming -- I love the medium as well, but its just not the same as watching highly trained athletes do what they do best.
You will never hear about an esports players parents having to drive him to the rink at 5 in the morning through blizzards, having the discipline to maintain a healthy diet and training routine for years, dealing with physical pain and injury in the same way.
And then creating magic in a real physical space when the stakes are high -- not recreating magic with a canned animation by pressing a button faster than the opponent. Its just not the same.
There are narratives just as compelling in eSports if you take the time to look for them.
For example, IM.Mvp is a great story. He grew up incredibly poor, but was able to put food on the table for his family through his tournament winnings in SC2. Towards the end of his career he suffered from a neck condition that caused severe wrist pain and made his hands go numb during games. But he couldn't take time off to get it treated because he was basically the sole breadwinner for his family. So despite being unable to practice and having to withdraw from a bunch of tournaments, he managed to battle through it to win his 4th GSL (the SC2 equivalent of Wimbledon or the US Open).
And you absolutely can create magic in a video game, again if you look in the right places. There's no canned animation for perfect unit control in starcraft, or perfect aim in Overwatch or Counterstrike. That's raw, incredible skill that only a handful of people in the world possess.
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I'm curious why some people have such an axe to grind over e-sports.
Its getting bigger and bigger every year.
So is society. Kids don't need to go outside to play sports anymore, they can all sit in their basements and chat while competing for a world championship.
Videogames are like a fun reward not a lifestyle.
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What is with all the made up definitions of sport? We already have dictionaries for things like this.
Languages need common definitions of words in order to be a useful communication tool. Otherwise we would not be able to understand each other because all the words would mean different things to everybody.
Debate on if something is a sport should be about if it matches the dictionary definition or not. Any other criteria is attempting to the definitions of words to accommodate personal biases.
That is not to say definitions cannot change over time, but it happens slowly, and requires the shared understanding for the culture as a whole. But the dictionary people are on top of it, updating their definitions every year. So we should not need to worry about dictionary being out of date.
sport (spôrt, spōrt)
n.
Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
n.
A particular form of this activity.
n.
An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.
...and then throw up your arms wondering why people think you're being a dick with your opinion. You write that with a smarmy attitude, there's no two ways about it. You really think you're right about your point, I get that. But you're choosing your own words to communicate it.
Also, no one has taken you to task over anything.
I posted the definition of 'Sport' and you objected to it a little over an hour ago. I don't think anyone has given you a modicum of a hard time this morning, besides someone pointing out you're coming off as a dick. Don't be a victim.
I am the furthest thing from a victim there is, in this matter and any other. Learned that playing sports. What I have managed to do through all this discourse is to avoid name calling and belittling. In fact, I haven't once made it personal. So yea, I will absolutely call out someone who does. Get a grip.
And by take me to task, I was referring to HockeyGuy15 attacking my list of extreme sports examples, while failing to provide his own list of e-sport examples. By the way, "taking me to task" isn't a negative allegation, it means that someone was asking me to defend said list. You need to step back and get some perspective.
I'm not a professional athlete, but I played football, rugby, baseball, and swam competitively as a kid. What I took from those activities was a sense of team work, discipline, fair play and dedication. I imagine that there is some of the same principles that could be derived from people competting in competitive gaming. I guess what I dislike most that it's possible to be a part of a team that never actually meets or competes in person and misses out on the social education that I experienced on actual sports teams. The long bus rides, the dirt being mashed into open cuts, sweat stinging your eyes as you go to war against your opponent. Supporting each other on the equally long bus ride home when you come up short. To me, specifically, thats probably the biggest part of my issue.
I'm not a professional athlete or gamer, but I played basketball growing up, and have participated in a number of League of Legends tournaments. I found the sense of team work, discipline, fair play and dedication to be the same in both, and this is where I feel there is the most overlap between traditional sports and e-sports. Sure I never had long bus rides or open cuts from gaming, but myself and my team still practiced for 10+ hours a week, studying from those better than us, trying to improve as much as we could, and analyzing our opponents to try to find their playstyle and weaknesses. Like in any sport, we lost most tournaments, but I was lucky enough to make it to the finals for one and get to play on a stage with live commentary, and barely squeezed out a victory. The adrenaline high from that was as strong as I had from any basketball tournament.
There is a reason that those of us who have done both call it a sport. We acknowledge that it's less physically demanding, which is why that little 'e' is there, but everything else is the same. Though even that is starting to change. The top players have health and fitness coaches, just like any athlete. Taking care of your body is essential to being able to compete at the peak level. Heck, there's even sports injuries. Some pro gamers have had to retire or get surgery for carpal tunnel.
I am the furthest thing from a victim there is, in this matter and any other. Learned that playing sports. What I have managed to do through all this discourse is to avoid name calling and belittling. In fact, I haven't once made it personal. So yea, I will absolutely call out someone who does. Get a grip.
And by take me to task, I was referring to HockeyGuy15 attacking my list of extreme sports examples, while failing to provide his own list of e-sport examples. By the way, "taking me to task" isn't a negative allegation, it means that someone was asking me to defend said list. You need to step back and get some perspective.
... Says the guy attacking the biggest growing entertainment industry based on a word.
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