At least 84 killed in terrorist attack in Nice, France

[Buster]

Originally Posted by peter12

It blows my mind that people are still debating this connection.

I have a guilty fascination with those who deny such an obvious causal relationship between the ideology of Islam and terrorism/gay-killing/misogyny, etc.

[peter12]

If every third terrorist attack was perpetrated by a jobless millennial or a white supremacist from Arkansas, I could see their point.

[Buster]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

There is clearly an issue but these polls just identify 'Muslim' and don't represent the many different sects that comprise the religion. And polls from areas of the world that have more complex problems than other areas. It lumps all into this monolith.

Most people don't understand the diversity of sects and diversity of views. From the perspective of policy towards western born and bred Muslims it 'seems' non representative, despite the headlines.

Most of the polls have a regional breakdown. I think you're running into issues of cognitive dissonance here, frankly. You're facing information and analysis that seems valid and informative, but you aren't comfortable with the conclusion that you're realizing is inevitable. From the other keyboard, you seem like you have a head on your shoulders, and if the topic was different you would probably take the balance of evidence presented and reach your conclusion much earlier.

Summed up nicely by my favorite philosopher, Marlo Stanfield:

[Azure]

Originally Posted by T@T

You mean rich countries like Saudi Arabia who's leaders wink and smurk at each other after everyone of these attacks?

What seems like a blind eye is really the middle finger.

Yup. Among others.

We support Saudi Arabia. And the other countries that are rich enough to do what they want.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Yes it matters where they came from

Yes you can reduce immigration/refugee claims from those areas

Yes you can reduce visa applications/approvals from those areas.

Enough radical Islamic terrorism already.

You still can't put up a wall. Obviously we should do our due diligence and make sure we try our best to keep fundamentalists out. But its not like they will hold up a sign saying who they are.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Buster

The Middle East?

The main problem (if you can distill it down to that), is that mainstream Islam is not nearly as troubled with these events as we are. The message out of this atrocity from the Muslim community will be to condemn "Islamophobia" - that will be the primary concern of the Muslim world. Just like Charlie Hebdo. Just like Orlando. Just like 9-11.

People feel that the only way for this to end is Islamic moderates to finally have their voice heard. The problem is that Islamic moderates are not moderate in the way we think they are. An Islamic moderate is still way far to the extremist than they are to sharing secular/liberal/western views.

We know this from well regarded poll results from organizations like Pew and ICM.

Like I said, we need to find a way to get the Middle East to start engaging more. Lots of countries with resources are playing the fence.

The other option is for the West to go crazy over there. Change the rules of engagement and become utterly ruthless. Maybe you quiet things down for 5 years. At some point it will still be a problem though.

Need to change the foundation upon which these countries are built. Go back to pre 1980 times.

[Buster]

Originally Posted by Azure

Like I said, we need to find a way to get the Middle East to start engaging more. Lots of countries with resources are playing the fence.

The other option is for the West to go crazy over there. Change the rules of engagement and become utterly ruthless. Maybe you quiet things down for 5 years. At some point it will still be a problem though.

Need to change the foundation upon which these countries are built. Go back to pre 1980 times.

You haven't been paying attention.

This stuff is happening because a huge percentage of the population there believe in crazy pedophiles in the sky on winged horses.

[Azure]

This stuff is happening because rich countries like Saudi Arabia have been exporting fundamental Islam for years while we give them money and weapons to do so.

Couple that together with some of the other issues in the Middle East such as civil war and ISIS, issues in France and Europe such as high unemployment and poverty, and you have the perfect combination for the whack jobs to recruit innocent people to go drive into a crowd and kill 80+ people.

Saddam was crazy too, but he wasn't ISIS crazy.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Azure

This stuff is happening because rich countries like Saudi Arabia have been exporting fundamental Islam for years while we give them money and weapons to do so.

Couple that together with some of the other issues in the Middle East such as civil war and ISIS, issues in France and Europe such as high unemployment and poverty, and you have the perfect combination for the whack jobs to recruit innocent people to go drive into a crowd and kill 80+ people.

Saddam was crazy too, but he wasn't ISIS crazy.

What about violent Islamic radicalism outside the Middle East in Mali, Indonesia, and the Philippines?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

What about violent Islamic radicalism outside the Middle East in Mali, Indonesia, and the Philippines?

The Saudis having been spreading their extremist views for decades. In similar ways to how Mormons go on missions to convert people. Obviously, the message is different. The Saudis most certainly have been setting up shop in places like the Philippines and Indonesia though.

It's only now, with the rise of ISIS, that SA is beginning to see the error of their ways and pulling this funding back. The Saudis vision was pretty simple. Export fundamentalism. Fundamentalists will be loyal to the Saudis, as the custodians of the core Islamic sites/theology. They didn't anticipate groups actually reading the Koran and finding out that hereditary kingship is forbidden and that an even more fundamental version would evolve, or that these groups would begin to secure their own funding.

All that being said, I really don't see the point in singling out Islam every time there's one of these attacks. We all know that fundamentalist Islam is producing a lot of radicals. However, we also need to take into account that the vast majority of the victims of fundamentalist Islam are Muslims themselves. I'm not sure what people want the average Muslim to do about it? Abandon their religion? Go on a Rambo style crusade to weed out the bad guys? What exactly?

[peter12]

Well, some pretty serious restrictions on immigration are probably in the pipe across Europe.

[burn_this_city]

I love that stupid people here don't grasp the fact we've ####ed them over for the better part of a century and blow back is a real thing.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

I love that stupid people here don't grasp the fact we've ####ed them over for the better part of a century and blow back is a real thing.

What does this even mean?

[CaptainCrunch]

We should do a scalp bounty on them. I mean going over there to fight a war against these scum is going to cost millions. Instead put a 15 million dollar bounty per senior leader 10 million for every minor leader and let their own peoples greed stab them in the back.

Add a 5 million dollar bonus to each if you get them alive so we can hang them, or put them in a cage and light them on fire. Or stuff grenades in their body holes and pull the pin.

Maybe we have to be less civilized in the treatment of their leaders. I mean they're driven by power, greed and money so they're not redeemable. Unlike some poor uneducated schmuck who thinks its a great adventure and they're doing gods work.

[terryclancy]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

The most murderous regime the world has ever known described religion as "the opiate of the people".

Just saying. (As someone who doesn't have a God either)

Not to derail the thread, but that paraphrase is of something Marx wrote in the 1840s. He obviously was never involved in the regime to which you refer (Stalinist USSR or perhaps Maoist China?).

[peter12]

Originally Posted by terryclancy

Not to derail the thread, but that paraphrase is of something Marx wrote in the 1840s. He obviously was never involved in the regime to which you refer (Stalinist USSR or perhaps Maoist China?).

He may have had something to do with it.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814 View Post

The most murderous regime the world has ever known described religion as "the opiate of the people".

Just saying. (As someone who doesn't have a God either)

Yeah, but he also used international believers in communist theory which included atheism useful idiots. So there's that.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by peter12

What does this even mean?

Look at a map of the Middle East prior to the First World War, then look at the map of the current Middle East.

The Allies carved up the 600 year old Ottoman Empire. They did this without giving a flying #### about the history of the area. They were colonial powers taking the spoils of victory.

Now, if the Germans had won the First World War in the first month, as they very nearly did, the entire 20th century turns out different. Nicolas II doesn't fall to the Bolsheviks and thus the Soviet Union never happens, Adolph Hitler doesn't come to power, Hiroshima and Nagasaki aren't nuked, 6 million Jews are still alive, who knows how many Russians are still alive, the Middle East isn't a giant cluster####, the list goes on.

But we could play that game forever.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Look at a map of the Middle East prior to the First World War, then look at the map of the current Middle East.

The Allies carved up the 600 year old Ottoman Empire. They did this without giving a flying #### about the history of the area. They were colonial powers taking the spoils of victory.

Now, if the Germans had won the First World War in the first month, as they very nearly did, the entire 20th century turns out different. Nicolas II doesn't fall to the Bolsheviks and thus the Soviet Union never happens, Adolph Hitler doesn't come to power, Hiroshima and Nagasaki aren't nuked, 6 million Jews are still alive, who knows how many Russians are still alive, the Middle East isn't a giant cluster####, the list goes on.

But we could play that game forever.

Which is why we won't.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by peter12

What does this even mean?

We've lied to them, partitioned their countries, stole their resources or land, backed despots, overthrew their governments, bombed their civilians accidentally or otherwise, starved them out via sanctions. I find it ridiculous to distill it down to their religion, when it simply tells them to fight oppression. This has always been about politics, and religion provides an excellent recruitment tool.