Honestly, if I'm a Frenchman right now, I'd be inclined to give up some of that freedom if it meant safety for my family. Obviously it can be a slippery slope, but freedom means little if you're living in constant fear anyway.
Either way, I don't think the West gets past this without some really hard, and probably harsh, decisions.
France has been under a state of emergency since the November attacks, with military crawling all over the streets of Paris. During their Bastille celebrations security was even tighter.
What else are you prepared to give up? You're French, you're already under martial law... How is the govt going to create an environment that's "safer" and why does it nessecitate the further surrender of personal rights?
Maybe instead of living in fear and relinquishing more rights, perhaps politicians who allowed this problem to fester through policy need to be held to task? Crazy idea I know.
Cliff is right, more terrorist attacks will lead to a stronger sense of nationalism and the upheaval of sitting govt. People won't stand for much more of this.
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Originally Posted by Yamer
Even though he says he only wanted steak and potatoes, he was aware of all the rapes.
This might be another Orlando, not a true Islamic Extremist terrorist attack, just some loser who wanted to go out and saw a chance to use ISIS as the reason.
Honestly, if I'm a Frenchman right now, I'd be inclined to give up some of that freedom if it meant safety for my family. Obviously it can be a slippery slope, but freedom means little if you're living in constant fear anyway.
Either way, I don't think the West gets past this without some really hard, and probably harsh, decisions.
Understood, but you can't ban trucks and I don't know if you can stop one crazy loser who wants to drive one into a crowd of people.
From the little bit we know about this guy, it doesn't seem like he was a part of any group, or even a religious person, so you can't even sniff him out that way beforehand.
That being said, they gotta do something, but I don't know what the hell that is.
They had some Congressman (R) on CNN this morning who said western civilization needs to go to war. And Trump saying America needs to declare war and that's what he'll do. So I guess the strategy among some powerful types is to do exactly what ISIS has been saying they want.
Heroic man may have prevented an even worse tragedy
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A man slowed the murderous rampage of a man driving a truck through a crowd in Nice by jumping into the cab and seizing his revolver.
The attack, 31-year-old Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel, was slowed when a heroic member of the public leapt onto the vehicle and wrestled the driver.
Police sources in Nice confirmed that the murderous two kilometre charge of the lorry might have been even longer if it had not been for the courage of a member of the public.
They said the man had hurled himself into the cab when the 20 tonne truck was held up by an obstruction. He wrestled with the driver, who seized a revolver and fired several shots at the man and at police officers who arrived on the scene. None was hurt. The driver was then shot dead by two officers.
Eyewitness Eric Ciotti told Europe 1 said that as people tried to flee from the truck, someone jumped in and was able to help the police kill the man.
"A person jumped on to the truck to try to stop it," he told the radio station.
"It's at that moment that the police were able to neutralise this terrorist. I won't forget the look of this policewoman who intercepted the killer."
What else are you prepared to give up? You're French, you're already under martial law... How is the govt going to create an environment that's "safer" and why does it nessecitate the further surrender of personal rights?
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Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos
Understood, but you can't ban trucks and I don't know if you can stop one crazy loser who wants to drive one into a crowd of people.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there is some magical solution where if you decrease freedoms you'll get more security...just that form a standpoint of a regular citizen I think people are going to be willing to stretch the boundaries of acceptability. Right or wrong, with every new attack, what is "normal" changes.
There is definitely no easy fix here. There are systematic issues of poverty and lack of integration that would take years, if not decades, to properly rectify.
This will get overlooked, dammit why did he have to be brown?
He's brown, so he's a terrorist
He's a terrorist, so he's related to ISIS
He's related to ISIS, so he's inspired by Islam
Islam is bad
It's a neat little package. Much easier for people to just assume "oh, terrorism, ISIS, got it" than have to process the fact that the problem is varied and much deeper than Islamic terrorism. I would say that the publication and dramatisation of every act of terrorism does more harm in good though, as it inspires the random un-related crazies to fairly significant, violent acts.
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There is an unacceptably high % in that poll (although not majority) but what are you talking about with the not having cajones part? I'm unclear what you're referencing here. I think this link sheds more light on topic.
I may be incorrect but are you also suggesting that you would rather base your bias towards a whole group on % from a limited poll from selected countries than actually talking to people (anecdotal).
To your first question:
I reject the notion that people put forward that "Islam is a religion of peace, because most people are not jihadists." People seem to have this idea that the world's Muslim population are moderate by our standards, and the jihadists are a very distinct group which do not reflect the overall beliefs of the Muslim population. I think it is important to recognize that mainstream Muslim belief around the world is NOT moderate. Most Muslims do not have the capacity for suicide bombings, but that does not mean, by extension that most Muslims view jihad in the same way we do.
To your second question:
I much prefer data to anecdotal evidence. Identifying trends in data is not "bias towards a whole group". It's just analysis. You discomfort with the data does not mean the data is invalid.
Wait, was he suggesting that anecdotal evidence was preferable to basing conclusions on the responses of a statistically representative sample?? That's just crazy talk. It's not a matter of your preference, Buster; that's like saying "I much prefer peer-reviewed scientific data to determine the best medical treatments for my family, rather than using a Ouija board".
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
Wait, was he suggesting that anecdotal evidence was preferable to basing conclusions on the responses of a statistically representative sample?? That's just crazy talk. It's not a matter of your preference, Buster; that's like saying "I much prefer peer-reviewed scientific data to determine the best medical treatments for my family, rather than using a Ouija board".
No, I was not suggesting anecdotal is preferable. I'm wondering if you base your opinions on a 'statistically representative' poll you tend to think, a % in some poll indicate x so every individual in that group deserve a level of skepticism.
Let's justify putting them all on a watch list. Or it's ok to take away rights of an entire group of people.
There were also posters who stated they know friends, or live in a country where views don't follow that % so those anecdotes are somehow less informative.
Wait, was he suggesting that anecdotal evidence was preferable to basing conclusions on the responses of a statistically representative sample?? That's just crazy talk. It's not a matter of your preference, Buster; that's like saying "I much prefer peer-reviewed scientific data to determine the best medical treatments for my family, rather than using a Ouija board".
Well, technically it's still preferable too...heh.
But I think that's what he was suggesting. It's the most common argument presented on this topic: I know lot's of Muslims and they are all nice, moderate people. Conclusion: Islam is a benign religion of peace, and the 1 billion Muslims of the world are all mis-understood victims.
No, I was not suggesting anecdotal is preferable. I'm wondering if you base your opinions on a 'statistically representative' poll you tend to think, a % in some poll indicate x so every individual in that group deserve a level of skepticism.
Let's justify putting them all on a watch list. Or it's ok to take away rights of an entire group of people.
There were also posters who stated they know friends, or live in a country where views don't follow that % so those anecdotes are somehow less informative.
They are less informative. Inherently. Anecdoctal evidence is useless from a policy perspective. This, meanwhile, makes no sense:
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I'm wondering if you base your opinions on a 'statistically representative' poll you tend to think, a % in some poll indicate x so every individual in that group deserve a level of skepticism.
That is the exact opposite of what accurate polling should show. It demonstrates that NOT every individual in the group holds the belief surveyed for. Specifically, in Britain, if the poll is accurate and subject to its margin of error, 70% do think suicide bombing is justified in some cases, while 30% don't. That is the opposite of a generalization. It still demonstrates that there are millions of Muslims who hold that belief, which is not a good belief to hold, and a problem that needs confronting.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
That is so incredibly heroic. I can't believe it traveled 2 km before it was stopped, wow. But that guy is a hero, a very selfless and dangerous act but I would hope that if something like this happened in Canada someone would step up and do the same thing. That is a nice story out a of truly gruesome and horrible act.
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There is clearly an issue but these polls just identify 'Muslim' and don't represent the many different sects that comprise the religion. And polls from areas of the world that have more complex problems than other areas. It lumps all into this monolith.
Most people don't understand the diversity of sects and diversity of views. From the perspective of policy towards western born and bred Muslims it 'seems' non representative, despite the headlines.
