[Rumour] Islanders willing to trade this year's 1st for more immediate help

[mikephoen]

I haven't read every post in this thread, but one thing I haven't seen mentioned is that this is the Islanders who are thinking of trading the 5th overall pick. The ISLANDERS! These guys make the most bone headed trades in the league and have been doing so for decades. I hope Burke is burning up the phone buttering up Snow and snaps up that 5th overall for a pittance. If any team would give away an asset like that it's the Islanders.

[djsFlames]

Looked up the stats..

Kane had 1 more goal and 2 more points than Backlund this year, though mind you he did play fewer games. But Backlund is easily the more defensively responsible player. So if Kane+ gets the trade done, then why doesn't Backlund, Hudler and a 2nd? I think we overvalue 5th overall picks due to our current situation and demand for them (which does make sense to us, but you have to see it from a different perspective). The Isles have been doing what we're doing for years, though. They've got Tavares coming into his own, and a young top 6 that is really start to step it up offensively as well. They made the playoffs last year, but were decimated by injuries this year. They've got some top end. By adding Hudler and Backs, you're adding some really good (and needed) depth, 93 points worth of offense and defensive reliability after your top 6. Unless the Isles are strictly seeking help on their blue line, that's some pretty good return for a great, but not outstanding pick.

But there are likely much more appealing offers that will be made that we can't match. That is, if a team like the Oilers or Winnipeg is willing to overpay. But I think the Oilers might also trade their pick for immediate help.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Looked up the stats..

Kane had 1 more goal and 2 more points than Backlund this year, though mind you he did play fewer games. But Backlund is easily the more defensively responsible player. So if Kane+ gets the trade done, then why doesn't Backlund, Hudler and a 2nd? I think we overvalue 5th overall picks due to our current situation and demand for them (which does make sense to us, but you have to see it from a different perspective). The Isles have been doing what we're doing for years, though. They've got Tavares coming into his own, and a young top 6 that is really start to step it up offensively as well. They made the playoffs last year, but were decimated by injuries this year. They've got some top end. By adding Hudler and Backs, you're adding some really good (and needed) depth, 93 points worth of offense and defensive reliability after your top 6. Unless the Isles are strictly seeking help on their blue line, that's some pretty good return for a great, but not outstanding pick.

But there are likely much more appealing offers that will be made that we can't match. That is, if a team like the Oilers or Winnipeg is willing to overpay. But I think the Oilers might also trade their pick for immediate help.

All about star power.

In hockey having one player capable of putting up 80+ on the ice is always better than multiple players adding up to that point total.

E. Kane has that perceived potential. Backlund does not. Regardless of E. Kane's current stumbles, he is young enough to still have that star power potential. It makes his value exponentially higher. Generally, good hockey trades don't involve splitting up an assets value into smaller pieces.

Players like Hudler also don't have as much value as you'd think. Players of his age and skill are much more easily attainable on the free agent market.

[nemanja2306]

How about...

5th overall, cap dump
for
Sven, Hudler, Wideman (50% retained)

The Isles get immediate help (Hudler with JT would easily hit 60pts), a top 4 d-man who is a PP specialist at ~$3M and a skilled prospect with 1st line/2nd line potential so they don't completely sacrifice their future.

It might sound like an overpayment, but Flames do this for few reasons, I think.

1) Get rid of Wideman. He's a nice piece, but at $5M he's brutal although I will say that before his injury, he was a pretty good d-man, even in his own zone.
2) Getting Bennett/Draisatl AND Dal Colle would be sweet.
3) Flames get bigger. I love Hudler and Sven, but they're small. And a top 6 consisting of JG, Sven and Hudler (plus Byron and perhaps Cammy), is a recipe for disaster.

One might argue if it's worth giving Sven, Hudler, Wideman for essentially Dal Colle. I believe it is. For argument's sake, let's assume in terms of talent, that Sven and DC are same. However, Dal Colle is bigger which Flames DESPERATELY need to get. Wideman, well, he missed most of this year, did we really miss him that much? Losing Hudler would be a blow, yes, but on the other hand we: a) get bigger and b)open up space for JG, Poirer, Granlund..

[savemedrzaius]

There are talks of the Leafs offering their first rounder plus Reimer for the Islanders first. It costs a lot to trade up in the draft, let alone trade for a top 5 without having to give up at least afirst rounder +.

[Hugh Jahrmes]

Backlund + Hudler is probably a good starting point. And I love both of those players. Throw in cundari and make it happen Burkie

[stemit14]

Originally Posted by nemanja2306

How about...

5th overall, cap dump
for
Sven, Hudler, Wideman (50% retained)

The Isles get immediate help (Hudler with JT would easily hit 60pts), a top 4 d-man who is a PP specialist at ~$3M and a skilled prospect with 1st line/2nd line potential so they don't completely sacrifice their future.

It might sound like an overpayment, but Flames do this for few reasons, I think.

1) Get rid of Wideman. He's a nice piece, but at $5M he's brutal although I will say that before his injury, he was a pretty good d-man, even in his own zone.
2) Getting Bennett/Draisatl AND Dal Colle would be sweet.
3) Flames get bigger. I love Hudler and Sven, but they're small. And a top 6 consisting of JG, Sven and Hudler (plus Byron and perhaps Cammy), is a recipe for disaster.

One might argue if it's worth giving Sven, Hudler, Wideman for essentially Dal Colle. I believe it is. For argument's sake, let's assume in terms of talent, that Sven and DC are same. However, Dal Colle is bigger which Flames DESPERATELY need to get. Wideman, well, he missed most of this year, did we really miss him that much? Losing Hudler would be a blow, yes, but on the other hand we: a) get bigger and b)open up space for JG, Poirer, Granlund..

I think it's too much of an overpayment if you include Sven. Flames have done the legwork developing him. Even if you believe he doesn't have a place in the organization anymore, you have to maximize his return if you are trading away a former first rounder with his potential. Don't forget... Even the top guys in this draft are only thought to be really good 2nd line centers so people have to be careful not to over-value the 5th overall pick.

Maybe hudler, wideman (50% salary retained), and 2 x 2nd round picks.

[nemanja2306]

Originally Posted by stemit14

I think it's too much of an overpayment if you include Sven. Flames have done the legwork developing him. Even if you believe he doesn't have a place in the organization anymore, you have to maximize his return if you are trading away a former first rounder with his potential. Don't forget... Even the top guys in this draft are only thought to be really good 2nd line centers so people have to be careful not to over-value the 5th overall pick.

Maybe hudler, wideman (50% salary retained), and 2 x 2nd round picks.

It's not that I don't believe that he doesen't have a place in the organization, but with Sven, JG, Granlund all being small and all have to play in the top 6 to be effective, someone has to go. Especially if you add there Hudler, Byron and if we re-sign Cammy. That is way to small. If we can trade Sven to get another skilled forward that is bigger, that is a good deal. Like I said above, in terms of talent, between Sven and Dal Colle, there isn't much of a drop off (that said, my evaluation of Dal Colle are from YT videos and scouting reports). Essentially, Sven for bigger Sven.

We only really lose Hudler, IMO. However, I think NYI can get a better package elsewhere, but Snow is an idiot so who knows...

[Caged Great]

I'm all for overpaying for this pick.

We need to have our "elite" prospects all being young, so that way when they come up together, we might have the ability to pull a Chicago and win like they did in 2010.

Anyone over the age of 24, with the only possible exception of Giordano is irrelevant for our future teams as it'll likely be 2-3 years before we're in playoff contention. If any of those players can be used for the purpose of adding a top prospect, then we should do that. Even prospects where we have redundancies like our insane LW depth for example should be used if we can get the opportunity to get a second top forward. All 4 of the forwards are in the range from Monahan-Domi skill wise last year. They are very good players.


The thing is that we can "replace" the guys that we trade rather easily. With possibly having 10-15 million in cap space needed to fill in order to hit the floor or more depending on who we might ship out, we can pay/overpay players to hit that floor.

Players that would make sense for us to sign (not necessarily them)

Paul Stastny - 28
Thomas Vanek - 30
Milan Michalek - 29
Ryan Callahan - 28
Marian Gaborik - 32
Dave Bolland - 28
Derrick Brassard - 26
Matt Moulson - 30
Devin Setoguchi - 27

and that's not counting the D or G. If you offered Callahan 6+ or Stastny 7+ for some decent term, it might make sense for both sides.

Just have to find the right guys and sign them to fill holes, that way we aren't stuck with Edmonton's lack of veteran problem.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by savemedrzaius

There are talks of the Leafs offering their first rounder plus Reimer for the Islanders first. It costs a lot to trade up in the draft, let alone trade for a top 5 without having to give up at least afirst rounder +.

Yes it does cost a lot. But I don't think the offer you are referring to is much different than some suggested here.

Toronto's pick is 10th. I would argue that that is about what Baertschi is worth. And the Islanders want help now, so Baertschi would be more attractive than the 10th pick I would think.

The Islanders definitely need goaltending, so Reimer might interest them. But Reimer is worth less than Hudler as an asset.

Suggesting that they might prefer the 10th pick and a goalie is totally valid - that certainly is a package that they might be interested in.

However, suggesting that it is a package that is way more valuable that the packages that have been posted here isn't so valid. I would think that Baertschi + Hudler would be pretty comparable value to Toronto's 1st plus Reimer.

It would just be a question of preference as to what they are looking for.

[loob job]

I think it's funny that people think that stajan, glencross and a second would get the fifth overall pick.
I would assume it would take something like Sven and Backlund plus a second or third to get that pick form them.

[dying4acup]

Fact: at some point Burke will trade some small wingers, of which the Flames have plenty. Specifically left wingers. Of all positions, Left wing is the only one where I would say the Flames have "good" depth.

Fact: Neither Burke nor Ward have many good things to say about Sven Baertschi. He still holds pretty high value.

No matter how one might think Sven turns out (personally I think he can be an impact winger, very good complementary piece) I think he is the player who Burke will dangle in any significant trade talks he has this summer. A trade might not get done, but if it does, I'm betting Sven is part of it.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by loob job

I think it's funny that people think that stajan, glencross and a second would get the fifth overall pick.
I would assume it would take something like Sven and Backlund plus a second or third to get that pick form them.

The first package isn't enough, but at least it makes sense. Your package barely makes them better right now, which would be their whole point of moving this pick


To put this into context, 5th overall this year is probably worth close to the NJ pick last year that landed Schneider

[Tinordi]

Don't see the Flames having the pieces to make this trade. NYI want D and goaltending of which we have very little that's expendable.

[dying4acup]

Originally Posted by neo45

The first package isn't enough, but at least it makes sense. Your package barely makes them better right now, which would be their whole point of moving this pick


To put this into context, 5th overall this year is probably worth close to the NJ pick last year that landed Schneider

I agree. That said, Schneider had already proven to be a starter on a playoff team. Is Reimer comparable? If the deal is Reimer+10th overall for 5th overall, I would make the trade, and possibly shop the 10th pick for additional help as well.

Forgive me though, after watching Garth Snow mismanage his assets repeatedly (and recently) I can't see them making a good trade for the organization here.

I think that Burke is all over this one like a shark that smells blood.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by nemanja2306

How about...

5th overall, cap dump
for
Sven, Hudler, Wideman (50% retained)

The Isles get immediate help (Hudler with JT would easily hit 60pts), a top 4 d-man who is a PP specialist at ~$3M and a skilled prospect with 1st line/2nd line potential so they don't completely sacrifice their future.

It might sound like an overpayment, but Flames do this for few reasons, I think.

1) Get rid of Wideman. He's a nice piece, but at $5M he's brutal although I will say that before his injury, he was a pretty good d-man, even in his own zone.
2) Getting Bennett/Draisatl AND Dal Colle would be sweet.
3) Flames get bigger. I love Hudler and Sven, but they're small. And a top 6 consisting of JG, Sven and Hudler (plus Byron and perhaps Cammy), is a recipe for disaster.

One might argue if it's worth giving Sven, Hudler, Wideman for essentially Dal Colle. I believe it is. For argument's sake, let's assume in terms of talent, that Sven and DC are same. However, Dal Colle is bigger which Flames DESPERATELY need to get. Wideman, well, he missed most of this year, did we really miss him that much? Losing Hudler would be a blow, yes, but on the other hand we: a) get bigger and b)open up space for JG, Poirer, Granlund..

Wouldn't mind this in the long run. We need to get bigger (sorry, Huds), there's isn't really a place for Wideman on this team at this point (although he can be useful somewhere else), and I think Dal Colle or Ritchie will be a better player than Baertschi (even though I still think he can be a 2nd line winger), and are also both bigger players. Hopefully the cap dump player coming back could have some value here as well.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Anyone over the age of 24, with the only possible exception of Giordano is irrelevant for our future teams as it'll likely be 2-3 years before we're in playoff contention. If any of those players can be used for the purpose of adding a top prospect, then we should do that.

I disagree. You identify your core players with age being factored in. A player who is over 24 now may still be under 30 or around there when the team is looking to compete. Whereas a player who is 18 now may not be a contributor at 21 and even if they are they may take a few playoff series before they blossom. Take Ryan Johansen, it took him 4 years to break out. A lot of other players break out around that time. And that's not counting defensemen who generally reach their prime later.

[stemit14]

I would prefer to keep baertschi and gaudreau and see if either or both of them establish themselves as legit pro top-six forwards. I think they both could do it. Plus if the flames are going to trade baertschi, I would prefer to trade him in the next draft considering how deep it is. Gives him a year to up his value.

[Vinny01]

The Flames do not have the movable pieces to land the #5 pick. Backlund/Sven are not goin to get it done. Hudler and Wideman?? No chance!

[_Q_]

I think we all get too excited over the draft and in particular, high picks like this one. But I think we need to be wary of selling the farm so we can get a #5 pick in a weak draft. If it doesn't cost us much, then yeah, sure make a go for that #5, but trading 2 useful players, let alone 3 plus lower picks is insane. Take a look at previous weak drafts like 2008 or 1999 and tell me you would trade Backlund, Hudler and some second rounders for Luke Schenn or Tim Connolly.