"Got land? Thank an Indian."

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

They have a lot of land that can be used for possibly tourism development or power generation which Alberta lacks, maybe wind farms or hydro dams for sale to Albertans or the u.s. They have a lot of land for big opportunities.

They have a lot of strengths, it's about using those strengths and opportunites they have to benefit themselves and the land that they live on.

As mentioned before, many reserves have tried to capitalize on their land, and there are many examples of requests going to the Federal government and going stagnant as the Federal government actually has no one to approve them, or bounces them around internally for a few years. It really isn't "their land" and that needs to change.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I'm not ignorant of history though. I am quite aware of what the British and French colonialist, the church and the Canadian government have done to screw over First Nations people in Canada. I never spared them from that blame. I was educated in a school that was about 50% First Nations. They certainly didn't ignore history.

I am simply stating that history is more than just a snapshot and if you look at the big picture, aboriginal people have played a role in their current situation.

Obviously First Nations people play a huge role in continuing the cycle of the poverty and abuse. But as has been demonstrated all over the world, once you're placed in a multi-generational cycle of poverty, it's damned hard to break out of it regardless of anyone's intentions. People can point to outliers of successful people who grew up on reserves but all that does is muddy the issue. I know very successful people who grew up in trailer parks, but that doesn't mean a child born into a very poor family isn't generally severely disadvantaged relative to his peers.

People who threaten or beat up a person for working off the reserve weren't born that way. They've grown up in a hopeless situation where values and a way of life have been instilled in them which are largely a direct descendent of historical wrongs at the hand of the Canadian state. That doesn't excuse their behavior or justify it, but it does offer a context as to why it might occur. It's hard to begin to even approach a solution if we don't recognize why the current situation is as it is. And unlike most other situations of disadvantaged minorities, it's impossible to ignore this issue because of Canada's constitutional obligation to First Nations peoples.

[worth]

edit

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by return to the red

Some of the most racist and frequent comments I have ever heard regarding Natives have come from Natives themselves.

Used to play slowpitch against a Native team and the captain of the team would call me up to explain that they would be late because....pretty much every stereotype someone has ever heard.

Yep, that's where terms like "internalized racism" come in.

[schteve_d]

It's going to be difficult to ever have a meaningful discussion about the issues in this country when every time a person doesn't say "give them whatever they want", that person is quickly labelled a racist.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by schteve_d

It's going to be difficult to ever have a meaningful discussion about the issues in this country when every time a person doesn't say "give them whatever they want", that person is quickly labelled a racist.

If you think that that's what's been happening in this discussion, maybe stay out and let the grown ups talk.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

As mentioned before, many reserves have tried to capitalize on their land, and there are many examples of requests going to the Federal government and going stagnant as the Federal government actually has no one to approve them, or bounces them around internally for a few years. It really isn't "their land" and that needs to change.

That's partly on them too because Alberta reserves have been historically slow in getting their act together for land claims.

Dr. Neil McDonald has some excellent resource material pertaining to land claim issues.

BC has some excellent Aboriginal role model reserves who settled their claims, got some full autonomy over their land and are prospering. They do take a long time to settle, since they are largely based on things like artifacts, oral history or Church records, but the process does work.

While reserve structures do have issues as described above, settling their claim would nullify most of those concerns.

[rubecube]

I think we also need to take into account that when we view reserves and land as resources in need of development, that we're imposing a certain cultural viewpoint that may not vibe with every band's traditions.

[schteve_d]

Originally Posted by rubecube

If you think that that's what's been happening in this discussion, maybe stay out and let the grown ups talk.

Ok sport.

There's more to this issue than this thread.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I think we also need to take into account that when we view reserves and land as resources in need of development, that we're imposing a certain cultural viewpoint that may not vibe with every band's traditions.

Yes, by all means let's make sure our cultural viewpoint vibes with traditions generated by cultures that were often hunter-gatherers and had limited or no metalworking.

Skip the politically correct BS. It's not a tradition, it's a limited perspective.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

Skip the politically correct BS. It's not a tradition, it's a limited perspective.

Right, because Lockean enclosure is the only valid way to view land and natural resources.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by schteve_d

Ok sport.

There's more to this issue than this thread.

Oh I agree, but your posts in this thread have demonstrated either a lack of comprehension of the posts in the thread or a clear attempt to derail it with strawmen and drive-bys.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

As mentioned before, many reserves have tried to capitalize on their land, and there are many examples of requests going to the Federal government and going stagnant as the Federal government actually has no one to approve them, or bounces them around internally for a few years. It really isn't "their land" and that needs to change.

Yup. Similar stories are when natives try to start businesses, apparently there is a lot more paperwork to do than a regular citizen because the government wants to make sure they are not 'wasting' the benefits they get. So in turn, it's easy to get discouraged, and then the money does end up getting wasted on something else.

I'm not exactly sure if it's for reserve run businesses or business ownership in general, but it's a story I've heard a few times, and seems to fit in with what you're relating.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Yup. Similar stories are when natives try to start businesses, apparently there is a lot more paperwork to do than a regular citizen because the government wants to make sure they are not 'wasting' the benefits they get. So in turn, it's easy to get discouraged, and then the money does end up getting wasted on something else.

I'm not exactly sure if it's for reserve run businesses or business ownership in general, but it's a story I've heard a few times, and seems to fit in with what you're relating.

Again, this problem largely goes away once they settle their claims. Something they have been able to do since Trudeau.

[schteve_d]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I think we also need to take into account that when we view reserves and land as resources in need of development, that we're imposing a certain cultural viewpoint that may not vibe with every band's traditions.

Aaah, I always love when that word 'tradition' is rolled out with the native argument, as it is so often. Like the tradition of hunting.....in a quad with a high-powered rifle and a crane mounted in the back of the 3/4 ton. The tradition of fishing....with twin Merc outboards and a net strung to your buddies boat with twin Merc outboards. The tradition of whaling.....with a .50 cal machine gun mounted on the bow of your boat. The tradition of seal hunting...with a snow machine capable of a hundred km/hr. Yeah, love those traditions!

That is maybe the problem and why you accuse me of "strawmans" and "drive-bys" is that I have so many problems with the native argument that I don't even know where to start, or am sure that I have the time to debate it here with such an expert as yourself.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Obviously First Nations people play a huge role in continuing the cycle of the poverty and abuse. But as has been demonstrated all over the world, once you're placed in a multi-generational cycle of poverty, it's damned hard to break out of it regardless of anyone's intentions. People can point to outliers of successful people who grew up on reserves but all that does is muddy the issue. I know very successful people who grew up in trailer parks, but that doesn't mean a child born into a very poor family isn't generally severely disadvantaged relative to his peers.

People who threaten or beat up a person for working off the reserve weren't born that way. They've grown up in a hopeless situation where values and a way of life have been instilled in them which are largely a direct descendent of historical wrongs at the hand of the Canadian state. That doesn't excuse their behavior or justify it, but it does offer a context as to why it might occur. It's hard to begin to even approach a solution if we don't recognize why the current situation is as it is. And unlike most other situations of disadvantaged minorities, it's impossible to ignore this issue because of Canada's constitutional obligation to First Nations peoples.

So, native on white racism is justifiable... tolerable...? (it kind of sounds like that it what you are saying). Racism is racism no matter what. Everyone who has racist opinions has them are a product of their own experiences and environments (some historical and some current).

The system that holds them down (i.e. the reservation system that segregates them) would end more quickly if they were willing to let it go.

[calgarywinning]

You know, I still think this situation is hard to describe to a regular person.

I had a native friend through high school who I was very close with. What I learned is just the cultural difference between mainstream canadiana and the indian culture are wider than most can imagine. They see, feel and think differently than any other culture. But wait a minute, isn't that why the world is so diverse and different?

While we talk about these issues, he would be drawing amazing nature art, be connected with things I wasn't aware of, but totally be insightful. To disregard a culture and their ways, both positive and negative makes anyone negative.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

So, native on white racism is justifiable... tolerable...? (it kind of sounds like that it what you are saying). Racism is racism no matter what. Everyone who has racist opinions has them are a product of their own experiences and environments (some historical and some current).

Not sure how that's an example of racism towards whites. Here's the example:

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

We had an employee who worked for us and also lived on reserve at Hobbema. She was a good employee but she faced a lot of bullying and pressure by her peers as a result of getting a job. Eventually she was jumped by 5 guys, who put her in the hospital for a for a few days all because she had a job which she wouldn't leave.

After that she turned in her resignation. Really sad story.

Your reading comprehension also needs some serious work if you think I was suggesting those actions were justifiable or tolerable. There's a vast difference between exploring the root cause of a problem and accepting or tolerating that problem. Children who are abused are much more common to abuse their own children, but that doesn't mean it's OK.

If some white people are racist as a result of their environment then that doesn't make their opinions any less repugnant, it just explains why some people feel the way they do.

The system that holds them down (i.e. the reservation system that segregates them) would end more quickly if they were willing to let it go.

You want them to "let go" of their constitutionally protected rights without any kind of compensation? And how exactly does throwing them all out on the street help them better their lot in the long run?

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by schteve_d

Aaah, I always love when that word 'tradition' is rolled out with the native argument, as it is so often. Like the tradition of hunting.....in a quad with a high-powered rifle and a crane mounted in the back of the 3/4 ton. The tradition of fishing....with twin Merc outboards and a net strung to your buddies boat with twin Merc outboards. The tradition of whaling.....with a .50 cal machine gun mounted on the bow of your boat. The tradition of seal hunting...with a snow machine capable of a hundred km/hr. Yeah, love those traditions!

That is maybe the problem and why you accuse me of "strawmans" and "drive-bys" is that I have so many problems with the native argument that I don't even know where to start, or am sure that I have the time to debate it here with such an expert as yourself.

So basically they have to act as living artifacts who are frozen in time in order for it to meet your standard of tradition?

[Daradon]

There is a good argument going on here. Continue. (not ironic)