"Got land? Thank an Indian."

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

"I can't be racist, I have black friends!" Come on man, you're not even trying.

Hate the people, not the race. I mean, I hate you because you're a bigoted #######, not because you're non-native.

I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I think what he's trying to say is there are systemic problems within the reserve (created by the band members themselves) that perpetuate the cycle of poverty, sexual and substance abuse, including an inherent distrust of the "white man" (not that this isn't unfounded).

Thompson Highway's "Rez Girls" or Ecstacy of Rita Joe explores these concepts.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

"I can't be racist, I have black friends!" Come on man, you're not even trying.

Hate the people, not the race. I mean, I hate you because you're a bigoted #######, not because you're non-native.

Nothing I have said hasn't been said to me by some of the First Nations people that I know. So I suppose that in your opinion, they are just being inwardly racist?

I recall when I worked in Northern Ontario and I had to go to a reserve (Wabsemoong) to collect a stolen (and trashed) work vehicle. The amount of shame the poor woman at the band office displayed about her own people was more "racist" than anything in this thread.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by jammies

Even better, don't hate anyone.

Quoted for truth.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Nothing I have said hasn't been said to me by some of the First Nations people that I know. So I suppose that in your opinion, they are just being inwardly racist?

I recall when I worked in Northern Ontario and I had to go to a reserve (Wabsemoong) to collect a stolen (and trashed) work vehicle. The amount of shame the poor woman at the band office displayed about her own people was more "racist" than anything in this thread.

So clearly because someone is racist towards someone else it makes it acceptable.

That's some fine logic there Lou.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

So clearly because someone is racist towards someone else it makes it acceptable.

That's some fine logic there Lou.

Nobody was being racist in either situation.

I don't think you know what racism is.

If I said that the current economic situation in Greece is partly due to the history Greek people have of accepting corruption, does that make me racist against Greeks? Or is it just better to blame it on the Germans, and the projection of their economic ideals through the EU for their problems (as many there do)?

Sometimes groups of people really do have some responsibility to their situation and it shouldn't be taboo to acknowledge this.

[Kybosh]

Got land? Thank stardust.

[Raekwon]

Originally Posted by jammies

even better, hate everyone.

fyp

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I'm wondering how many of the experts on First Nations issues here have actually lived and worked in areas where Natives are the majority. I get the sense a lot of people here are discussing this issue over their lattes and yops and don't have any real life experience on the issue.

Are you saying you needed to attend a residential school or live on a reserve, etc to properly judge how much of a net advantage/disadvantage they gained from being in that situation and others like it for 200+ years?

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I think what he's trying to say is there are systemic problems within the reserve (created by the band members themselves) that perpetuate the cycle of poverty, sexual and substance abuse, including an inherent distrust of the "white man" (not that this isn't unfounded).

Thompson Highway's "Rez Girls" or Ecstacy of Rita Joe explores these concepts.

So do you blame the people who are in the reserve, or the situation that forced them into the reserve in the first place?

[GGG]

I think one of the biggest issues facing integrating Natives into our society and out of a reserve system is Land Rights. Right now to do anything on reserve land requires federal government approval. This takes years.

For example the Ring Road deal for the Tsu Tina isn't done yet because the Federal government hasn't approved it yet. They can't develop their land without federal government approval. They can't lease there land without federal government approval, they can't sell their land without federal government approval. They can't buy land to expand their reserve without federal government approval. Individuals also can't own their houses or the land they are on.

So how have we (government of canada) incentivised the reserve system. If you leave the reserve you get less, if you try to develp business on the reserve you are fought at every turn, as an individual you don't own your house so there is no reason to improve it. Everything in the current reserve system incentivizes not improving the standard of living.

The first change that needs to be made which it sounds like the harper government is working towards is to allow bands autonomy over the reserve lands. Doing this would help to eliminate a lot of issues. It isn't a one stop solution but it would at least allow good bands to progress.

As to people who want to just tear up the contract I think that if you were owed acres of land in a deal that was signed previously you would be very upset if the govenment came back and said lets just rip up the contract. For the land claims issue it should be simple, fufill the contract you signed and be done with it.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Are you saying you needed to attend a residential school or live on a reserve, etc to properly judge how much of a net advantage/disadvantage they gained from being in that situation and others like it for 200+ years?

I would say that someone's perspective would be much different if they have first hand experience. Absolutely.

And that goes with pretty much everything in life.

"Blame" in these situations is never 100%. The reservation system is one of the most racist institutions on the planet and for that, white people are to blame (or certain white people).

(I suppose acknowledging this makes me racist against white people now!)

[kevman]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

"I can't be racist, I have black friends!" Come on man, you're not even trying.

Hate the people, not the race. I mean, I hate you because you're a bigoted #######, not because you're non-native.

Do you have anything constructive to add or are you just here to throw one-liner insults at everyone you disagree with?

Every native discussion always goes the same direction.
"We need to stop throwing money at them"
"Get over it"
Followed by
"You're a bigot"
"It's a systemic problem that is too complex for you"

With neither side actually offering solutions. So apart form going back to Europe (You know, cause European history certainly doesn't have any human rights blemishes..) what are we to do?

I'm more curious than knowledgeable on the subject so I don't even know where to begin. To those that have actually provided intelligent feedback (Cole?) what would you do to start fixing the situation if it was up to you? Would starting with an apology help at all?

You mention higher birth rates and as most of us surely know birth rates go down with education so how do you ensure better education?

Regarding crime rates I have a hard time believing that in this day and age the courts would hand out longer sentences based on the colour of ones skin. However, if that's what the stats say than it's clearly still an issue. How do we overcome that?

I'm of the belief that segregation promotes racism. I'm going to oversimplify this but could it be as simple as children playing together? Kids don't see colour. Adults see colour when they're exposed to it for the first time and it's something they're not familiar with. You can't take the racism out of someone that has lived it their entire life. You can however prevent racism in the future generations. The judges and politicians of tomorrow are not born racists. They're raised racist when they hear about "the reserves" and their first exposure to the natives is full of negative images downtown (substance abuse, violence, homelessness). So by starting at a young age you shape their minds from thinking "all natives live on the streets and therefore are up to no good" to "that native lives on the streets but my good buddy Jim who I spent by childhood playing Lego with was such a great guy that it's surely not the colour of your skin that determines who you are".

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I'm wondering how many of the experts on First Nations issues here have actually lived and worked in areas where Natives are the majority. I get the sense a lot of people here are discussing this issue over their lattes and yops and don't have any real life experience on the issue.

If you'd like to debate any point I've brought up, please do that. However please do not strawman this discussion by attacking or questioning my character, experience or academic training.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Cole436

If you'd like to debate any point I've brought up, please do that. However please do not strawman this discussion by attacking or questioning my character, experience or academic training.

It actually wasn't directed to you at all. It's not a strawman argument though. Would you take medical advice from someone who has never set foot inside of a hospital? (OK, hat last part is strawman)

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I'm wondering how many of the experts on First Nations issues here have actually lived and worked in areas where Natives are the majority. I get the sense a lot of people here are discussing this issue over their lattes and yops and don't have any real life experience on the issue.

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

It actually wasn't directed to you at all. It's not a strawman argument though. Would you take medical advice from someone who has never set foot inside of a hospital?

Direct experience is pointless if one is ignorant of the history and the effects of the history on the present situation. It's like getting medical advice from the hospital's janitor. I wouldn't take him as an expert simply because he has been in contact with sick people and seen the effects because he's ignorant of the causes and potential solutions.

_____________________________

As an aside, I wonder kind of response someone from the southern US (let's say PIMking for instance) would get if he said some of things people are saying about First Nations people in this thread in reference to black Americans. It's usually a lot easier to pick up on others' stereotypes from a distance and I imagine the reaction wouldn't be very pretty.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Direct experience is pointless if one is ignorant of the history and the effects of the history on the present situation. It's like getting medical advice from the hospital's janitor. I wouldn't take him as an expert simply because he has been in contact with sick people and seen the effects because he's ignorant of the causes and potential solutions.

I'm not ignorant of history though. I am quite aware of what the British and French colonialist, the church and the Canadian government have done to screw over First Nations people in Canada. I never spared them from that blame. I was educated in a school that was about 50% First Nations. They certainly didn't ignore history.

I am simply stating that history is more than just a snapshot and if you look at the big picture, aboriginal people have played a role in their current situation.

[GreenLantern]

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I'm not ignorant of history though. I am quite aware of what the British and French colonialist, the church and the Canadian government have done to screw over First Nations people in Canada. I never spared them from that blame. I was educated in a school that was about 50% First Nations. They certainly didn't ignore history.

I am simply stating that history is more than just a snapshot and if you look at the big picture, aboriginal people have played a role in their current situation.

Of course they have played a role in their situation, to claim otherwise would be completely idiotic. No one has ever said they didn't play a role.

Saying there are and have been systematic forces at work against natives in Canada, which have hurt them as a people, doesn't discount their influence in their own lives, it just says that they have a much bigger hill to climb.

[stampsx2]

Natives need to be helped, but never monetarily. It's been proven time and time again that throwing money at the problem doesn't help anybody.

Showing them the benefits of business development, resource extraction etc and helping them set that up is a start.

They have a lot of land that can be used for possibly tourism development or power generation which Alberta lacks, maybe wind farms or hydro dams for sale to Albertans or the u.s. They have a lot of land for big opportunities.

They have a lot of strengths, it's about using those strengths and opportunites they have to benefit themselves and the land that they live on.

[return to the red]

Some of the most racist and frequent comments I have ever heard regarding Natives have come from Natives themselves.

Used to play slowpitch against a Native team and the captain of the team would call me up to explain that they would be late because....pretty much every stereotype someone has ever heard.