1. Stamkos
2. Stamkos
3. Both will almost certainly be in
And yet, none of those questions were the one asked. If I'm building a team tomorrow there's no way I take Stamkos over Toews.
LOL how can you say both will certainly be in? It's way too early for either player but if Toews doesn't ramp up his points totals I don't see him getting in. He's not going to be remotely close to Fleury's career totals and Fleury has a cup ring.
Player A is Yzerman post the 94 lockout, when the run and gun era of the 80's and early 90's really came to an end. It's also when Yzerman really became a complete player, and coincidentally is when Detroit started winning. Player B is Toews. The numbers compare quite well, and while it is a comparison of a young player and a guy finishing up his career I expect to see Toews put up numbers in that range for at least another decade.
__________________
When you do a signature and don't attribute it to anyone, it's yours. - Vulcan
Nobody is debating his overall skills. He's a great player. He's just not what I would call an elite hockey player. He's like a more skilled Stephane Yelle which is great because you need those guys to win but I have a problem putting him in the same sentence as Crosby, Malkin, St. Louis, Stamkos, etc. Heck even Tavares is turning into a better player.
Did you seriously just call Jonathan Toews a more skilled Stephane Yelle? Good god, either you're using an extreme amount of hyperbole or you really are a terrible judge of talent.
__________________
When you do a signature and don't attribute it to anyone, it's yours. - Vulcan
Last edited by valo403; 05-21-2013 at 11:48 AM.
The Following User Says Thank You to valo403 For This Useful Post:
LOL how can you say both will certainly be in? It's way too early for either player but if Toews doesn't ramp up his points totals I don't see him getting in. He's not going to be remotely close to Fleury's career totals and Fleury has a cup ring.
Fleury also has a long list of black marks beside his name. I'm not sure if you're aware, but HOF selection is not simply based upon your point totals.
__________________
When you do a signature and don't attribute it to anyone, it's yours. - Vulcan
"When you look at a guy like Datsyuk, not all the God-blessed talent in the world, but he is a hard worker..."
This is quite the thing to say.
Now, Healy is certainly correct that Datsyuk is a hard worker. But as for that first part... I, and we'll assume anybody else that has seen Pavel Datsyuk -- who spawned the adjective Datsyukian, basically defined as "insanely skilled", and scored this goal later that same evening -- would respectfully beg to differ.
Unless, perhaps, Healy simply sees the distribution of talent a little like the distribution of wealth. If so, I guess you could argue that Datsyuk is hockey's version of a fatcat. The 1%, as it were. He doesn't have all the God-blessed talent in the world -- just most of it. But there's still a pittance remaining for the rest of us.
Or maybe Healy thinks Pavel Datsyuk is Justin Abdelkader.
What an idiot.
__________________
The Quest stands upon the edge of a knife. Stray but a little, and it will fail, to the ruin of all. Yet hope remains while the Company is true. Go Flames Go!
Player A is Yzerman post the 94 lockout, when the run and gun era of the 80's and early 90's really came to an end. It's also when Yzerman really became a complete player, and coincidentally is when Detroit started winning. Player B is Toews. The numbers compare quite well, and while it is a comparison of a young player and a guy finishing up his career I expect to see Toews put up numbers in that range for at least another decade.
Detroit winning their cups also coincides with Fedorov being in his prime. And Fedorov is very similar to Stamkos. So who can say if Detroit's cups were more a result of Yzerman or Fedorov? But do you really think Chicago wouldn't have won their Stanley Cup if you replaced Toews with Stamkos? C'mon, that team had great D, great goaltending, and great support players (if you can even call Hossa, Sharp, Kane, Byfulgien, etc. as "support players"). You take that exact 2009/2010 team and swap Toews for Stamkos, they still win the cup
__________________
"Illusions Michael, tricks are something a wh*re does for money ....... or cocaine"
Detroit winning their cups also coincides with Fedorov being in his prime. And Fedorov is very similar to Stamkos. So who can say if Detroit's cups were more a result of Yzerman or Fedorov? But do you really think Chicago wouldn't have won their Stanley Cup if you replaced Toews with Stamkos? C'mon, that team had great D, great goaltending, and great support players (if you can even call Hossa, Sharp, Kane, Byfulgien, etc. as "support players"). You take that exact 2009/2010 team and swap Toews for Stamkos, they still win the cup
I don't know if this is great comparison. I will agree that having Fedorov on the team was a huge part of the Cups that Detroit won in those years, but Fedorov is a different player from Stamkos. Both highly skilled yes, but Fedorov was a two-time Selke winner. I don't think we'd ever be considering Stamkos for that award. Not at this point anyways.
I don't know if this is great comparison. I will agree that having Fedorov on the team was a huge part of the Cups that Detroit won in those years, but Fedorov is a different player from Stamkos. Both highly skilled yes, but Fedorov was a two-time Selke winner. I don't think we'd ever be considering Stamkos for that award. Not at this point anyways.
Fedorov was an amazing 2 way player... I don't see a comparison with Stamkos at all... Fedorov is closer to Datsyuk... A more skilled version of Patrice Bergeron.
The Following User Says Thank You to PlayfulGenius For This Useful Post:
Detroit winning their cups also coincides with Fedorov being in his prime. And Fedorov is very similar to Stamkos. So who can say if Detroit's cups were more a result of Yzerman or Fedorov? But do you really think Chicago wouldn't have won their Stanley Cup if you replaced Toews with Stamkos? C'mon, that team had great D, great goaltending, and great support players (if you can even call Hossa, Sharp, Kane, Byfulgien, etc. as "support players"). You take that exact 2009/2010 team and swap Toews for Stamkos, they still win the cup
I don't know about that. Stamkos can score sure, but he's not very good defensively, doesn't win draws at nearly the same rate and doesn't bring the same physical game. As someone pointed out earlier, Tampa had 1-2 in scoring this year and still had a lottery pick. Offense isn't everything, and Stamkos is predominantly an offensive player at this point.
__________________
When you do a signature and don't attribute it to anyone, it's yours. - Vulcan
I don't know about that. Stamkos can score sure, but he's not very good defensively, doesn't win draws at nearly the same rate and doesn't bring the same physical game. As someone pointed out earlier, Tampa had 1-2 in scoring this year and still had a lottery pick. Offense isn't everything, and Stamkos is predominantly an offensive player at this point.
He literally being nothing else to the table. He's not even in my top 20 players.
Caveat: my hockey intelligence is about on last with your average Kenyan
Its funny listening to the media today they almost have this tone suggesting Detroit has won the series. Lets not forget the Hawks have been down 2-1 in a series and won before. The floodgates will open sooner or later and I would expect a very different Hawks team for game 4.
As for the ongoing debate, I would take Toews over Malkin as well.
Malkin is a heart attack! You never know if he's going to be superb or stupid when he steps on the ice...Toews is dropping down the line fast, he's starting to resort to stickwork, whinning at the refs, maybe the definition of a good leader is changing. He's replaceable. Malkin is capable of such great things, but you have to be prepared for the roller coaster ride he brings.
Malkin is a heart attack! You never know if he's going to be superb or stupid when he steps on the ice...Toews is dropping down the line fast, he's starting to resort to stickwork, whinning at the refs, maybe the definition of a good leader is changing. He's replaceable. Malkin is capable of such great things, but you have to be prepared for the roller coaster ride he brings.
With whom is Toews replaceable? The closest I can think of off hand is Bergeron, but while I think Bergeron is under-rated and a great player, I still don't think he is comparable to Toews.
Not sure if this was already posted in here or not, but really Healy? Datsyuk lacks god given talent?
__________________ "In brightest day, in blackest night / No evil shall escape my sight / Let those who worship evil's might / Beware my power, Green Lantern's light!"
And LA should return their SC and start their re-build ASAP.
As it is this year LA were 2 losses and a tie away from missing the playoffs.
Why would LA give back their SC and why would they rebuild? They are not a team build to get in the play-offs and see what happens they are built for long term success and contention.
Quote:
Did Anahiem have a great season??? How about St.L and Vancouver. .... They all had home ice advantage in the first round.... That is your goal for the Flames?
Anaheim didn't have a great season but probably successful season. St. Louis and Vancouver had disappointing seasons.
Home Advantage isn't what I want for the Flames, never said that, I want them to be a legit contender for the Cup, ideally for multiple seasons.
Quote:
If Chicago goes down to the Wings in round 2 are they a success? Will everyone recall that won the president's ttrophy
No and No.
Not sure why that matters to the point though.
Quote:
Since the salary cap was put in place 7 years ago the President trophy winner played in the SC final twice and won it once.
Teams just making the playoffs..... Starting the playoffs on the road:
Since the Salary Cap was put into place a whopping 3/16 8th seeds have won their first round series and a massive 5/16 7th seeds have one their first round series. Hardly showing that "anything is possible."
The Ottawa Senators were a 4th seed the year they went to the finals not 7th.
Quote:
so out of 14 SC finalists since the cap 6 had the primary goal (or result) of making the playoffs. as many teams scrapping in on the last day of the regular season have played in the SC final as those having won the President's trophy.
Many of those teams you list as having a primary goal of "making the play-offs" just isn't true. No way did Philly, LA, NJ, Pittsburgh have the goal of just get in and see what happens. It is a stretch to say that that Ottawa or Edmonton team were built that way either.
LA, Philly, NJ, Pittsburgh will filled with elite level talent and designed to be powerhouses for the next 4-5 years.
Quote:
This year only 3 of 8 home seeds have made it through to the second round and one just made it because the Leafs are cursed.
Look at the teams that made it through and the top level talent (would be in running for Team Canada Olympic team if they were all Canadian):
Ottawa: Spezza, Karlsson and a goalie playing at a Vezina level
NYR: Nash, Girardi, Lundqvist,
Det: Zetterberg, Datsyuk and the best coach in the game
SJ: Couture, Marleau, Thornton, Burns
LA: Kopitar, Richards, Carter, Doughty, Quick
Thrown in the secondary talent and Calgary doesn't have close to rosters that these lower seeds had. They aren't squeak into the play-offs and hope something good happens teams. They are solidly built teams with elite talent that just missed out on top seeds because of the number of good teams, the short season and in the East the stupid seeding for division winners.
Looking at the teams that made a run to the finals LA had the above mentioned elite players, NJ had possibly the best goalie of all time and Kovalchuk, Philly had Richards, Carter, Pronger, Giroux, Briere, Pittsburgh had Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Fleury (playing well), Hossa, Ottawa had Alfredsson, Spezza, Phillips, Heatly even the Oilers had Pronger and a play-offs in which they had every single break go their way.
These are not teams that snuck into the play-offs and hoped things went their way. These are very, very talented teams that underachieved during the regular season.
Using these teams as examples of "anything is possible" is stupid and shortsighted. It ignores what actually happened and compares teams based on seeds not actual talent or roster make-up.
Quote:
What would make you happy to have the Flames accomplish??
What would make me happy is to build a roster that is able to make the play-offs consistently and not have to rely on "anything is possible." A team that has the skill to compete with the top teams for the Cup and not hope they "get hot" or "get the bounces." A team that doesn't think getting 8th place and beat in 5 games is a successful season.
