[Trade] Flames trade Baertschi to VAN for a 2015 2nd round pick (Baertschi requested trade)

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Considering that no coach anywhere, ever, in the history of hockey, has wanted his players to do that, you're manufacturing your reading out of thin air.

Let's not pretend Hartley doesn't have his preferences in tradeoffs just as Darryl Sutter doesn't. Just look at how much he values guys like Smid, Bollig, Engelland etc. That doesn't mean Hartley "wants" to be a poor possession team but it does mean he'd choose poor possession and preventing great scoring chances over strong possession and getting scored on. That's not a knock on Bob, but simply me pointing out how Sven probably felt about our system. It's not just Calgary's system we're talking about here - Adirondack is a very similar team while Utica is a similar team to the Canucks. Even though he put up a 3 point night every now and then for Huska, he was definitely more considtently involved in whatever was going on for the Comets.

Re: Jooris / Granlund have been more successful than Sven playing the style we play: absolutely. But the point is that he wasn't indicting the Flames - he was simply referring to how he prefers the way Vancouver / Utica play. But everyone is so happy to go on the offensive.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

While it is very true that each coach will bring in a different system and value some different things, there is nothing, absolutely zero about the Flames system or Hartley as a coach that prevented Sven from succeeding here. That is simply what Sven is telling himself and anyone who asks him to justify to himself why things didn't work out. It's the classic, "it wasn't me"', despite the fact we have seen numerous other young, talented offensive players who probably weren't use to this system either thrive.

Sven thought he made it already, then found out he didn't, pouted. Then he decided he focus on his defensive game, at the complete expense of his offence, thought that should have been enough, it wasn't, pouted decided he wasn't going to put in the effort in and would prefer a change scenery because doing it here is just too hard. Now he's just telling himself to justify him not making it that he wasn't given a chance, was asked to change his game, blah blah so he feels better about it. When the reality is, all the Flames asked him to do was be at NHL standards without the puck and defensively, while still bringing some threat of offence. Something he never did.

I will say though, what is evident with how they traded him and the hold out on the Vancouver deal until the last second, is the talent evaluators on this team obviously feel he has the skill set to be a player in this league. If they didn't, there would be less hesitation to move him to the Nucks. So, as is the problem with young men, they often mature and figure it out, if Sven wakes the hell up in the next few years, he might turn into something. Just too bad for the Flames he was so far off getting it before he had the ability to run his clock out in Calgary, but nothing you can do, this team is creating a culture and any other handling of the Sven situation then what was done would have spat in the face of what we are trying to build and what has given us so much success this year.

[Bingo]

And for the record I don't think Baertschi is a bad kid, or a whiner or even entitled. I don't see the arrogance to be honest. I do see a kid that just doesn't get it, and that fact will sink his career unless

a) he grows up
or
b) the light bulb just goes off

As Jiri succinctly summarized from my Gaudreau comment above, his offense isn't on the level that buys a guy time to learn the rest. He has to get rid of the cart and go invest in the horse if he wants to be an NHLer. The horse is the 200 foot game.

Gaudreau was able to go cart and then have the horse come later.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Bingo

And for the record I don't think Baertschi is a bad kid, or a whiner or even entitled. I don't see the arrogance to be honest. I do see a kid that just doesn't get it, and that fact will sink his career unless

a) he grows up
or
b) the light bulb just goes off

As Jiri succinctly summarized from my Gaudreau comment above, his offense isn't on the level that buys a guy time to learn the rest. He has to get rid of the cart and go invest in the horse if he wants to be an NHLer. The horse is the 200 foot game.

Gaudreau was able to go cart and then have the horse come later.

Totally agree with your post, except Gaudreau kind of figured the defensive part out incredibly fast.

[mikeecho]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Let's not pretend Hartley doesn't have his preferences in tradeoffs just as Darryl Sutter doesn't. Just look at how much he values guys like Smid, Bollig, Engelland etc. That doesn't mean Hartley "wants" to be a poor possession team but it does mean he'd choose poor possession and preventing great scoring chances over strong possession and getting scored on. That's not a knock on Bob, but simply me pointing out how Sven probably felt about our system. It's not just Calgary's system we're talking about here - Adirondack is a very similar team while Utica is a similar team to the Canucks. Even though he put up a 3 point night every now and then for Huska, he was definitely more considtently involved in whatever was going on for the Comets.

For a coach like Hartley, he does have his preferences but the system is driven by the resources. The Flames are in year 2 of a rebuild and don't have the size or strength yet to play a possession game. I have no doubt he'd love to be a possession team, but he's smart enough to put together a plan he thinks will make them successful based on the roster he has. Sure, he likes Engelland, Smid and Bollig, but I guarantee he likes Doughty, Suter and Crosby better... he doesn't have them so he adjusts his plan. Let's just be happy we have a coach that can read his team and build a plan accordingly unlike the guy before him.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Man this subject will never die.

I agree, FFF

Seriously, it's quite strange that some of you are caring a lot more about Sven when he's not even on the team anymore.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

I agree, FFF

Seriously, it's quite strange that some of you are caring a lot more about Sven when he's not even on the team anymore.

Did you just quote and agree with yourself?

[GioforPM]

A lot of that quote sounds like someone is filling his head with bad advice. "Gee Sven, they're asking you to do stuff that wasn't what got you drafted. You were drafted night for a reason".

[jayswin]

Bah haha.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Did you just quote and agree with yourself?

Yes. Wouldn't it be weirder if I didn't agree with myself ?

[Aarongavey]

I agree with FFF agreeing with FFF. Sven is gone, they got as much as they thought they could for him. We as fans just have to hope this management group can pull it together. They have been carried more or less by Feaster brilliance so far (Wideman, Russell, Gaudreau, Hudler, Monahan and to a lesser extent Ramo, Jooris, Granlund, Jones, Colborne, Byron and others).

The current group got us Hiller who has been good and Engelland who has been better since Gio went down. They also gave us Raymond, Setoguchi, Bollig and others. If the current guys can even be half as good as Feaster and company we should be playoff bound for a long time regardless of how well Sven does.

[GioforPM]

The words Feaster and brilliance, when used together, should come with a caveat: "does not include RFA offer sheet brilliance".

I'd say you have to say Hiller is a qualified success, as is Engelland. Raymond has been as expected IMO. Setoguchi was a super cheap experiment. Bollig was my whipping boy early on, but I haven't minded him the last quarter season. You also have to give Treliving credit for Schlemko and Shore, who've both been good, Brodie's contract, and the recent college signing.

[greentree]

My strong hunch is that at least some part of Sven's adjustment problems lies at the feet of his agent, Andy Rufener. A good agent can be a huge asset, in many ways. This guy...well...sound familiar?
http://islanderspointblank.com/news/...o-swiss-press/

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The words Feaster and brilliance, when used together, should come with a caveat: "does not include RFA offer sheet brilliance".

I'd say you have to say Hiller is a qualified success, as is Engelland. Raymond has been as expected IMO. Setoguchi was a super cheap experiment. Bollig was my whipping boy early on, but I haven't minded him the last quarter season. You also have to give Treliving credit for Schlemko and Shore, who've both been good, Brodie's contract, and the recent college signing.

Hard to argue with your Bollig logic, he has looked better ever since they have scratched him and sent him to the pressbox. He looked particularly good this road trip.

Raymond has provided that almost David Jones offensive production without the physical presence or the defensive awareness of Jones.

Anyways, Sven is gone and the Flames must move on and try to re-sign the rest of the Feaster core so as to try to maintain their upward ascent. Add a few more pieces and the Flames should be set for a number of years.

[Flashpoint]

As soon as Baertschi figures out that he can go home to the Swiss league, be a superstar and make 6 figures while keeping all his teeth, he's gone. That'll occur as soon as he winds up in the minors next fall.

Just like Tim Ramholt.

Frankly, that's the risk of drafting Swiss players. They are from a first world country that has a really high paying professional league. Why ride the bus in the AHL in a foreign land burning hundreds of thousands each year if you don't have to?

[FireGilbert]

Sven Baertschi trade thread: How is this still a thing?

[Calgary4LIfe]

I disagree with Jiri and Bingo somewhat when they say that Gaudreau produced enough points to give him a bit longer of a leash defensively to figure things out.

I posted a while back (and got ripped hard by many Sven fanboys) when I stated that he doesn't hustle. That when I keep focusing on him at all times when he is on the ice, that he is simply not moving his feet (hello Charlie Simmer) like the rest of the players. That Sven stuck out in that way. He just didn't seem to have that urgency in his game like he should have, that he just didn't seem to look like he was constantly working hard within every shift, much less full games. That he just didn't 'compete'.

To me, that was when the light went off in my head as to what Burke was saying:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...ticle14610874/

“There are three zones in the ice surfaces in this league. I don’t see that he’s learned to play and compete in two of them. He’s got to learn there’s a clock in this league and there’s so many minutes in the game and that you’ve got to compete through all of it. I see this is a guy who’s focusing on one area [scoring] and even then, sporadically,” Burke said. “So I don’t know what we have.
“I’m not ready to quit on a young kid. I’m not ready to throw him under the bus here today and rip him, but I think you can tell from my comments that I see big holes and I see a lack of commitment that’s not going to get him anywhere in my books.”

Focusing in on what I bolded, these were the things that I was particularly focusing on when I started watching Baertschi regardless of where the puck was. What Burke stated started ringing so true.

Now, contrast that with Gaudreau. Sure, the kid made mistakes out there. Heck, Monahan, Colborne, Jooris, Granlund, etc., etc., etc., all made mistakes out there, and some made them very regularly in fact. However, I can't say that any of these kids weren't busting their humps regularly. Sven stuck out whenever he played because he seemed almost lazy and nonchalant out there as compared to his peers.

Gaudreau was making mistakes out there REGULARLY, and he was not producing. Took 5 games before Hartley gave him a one game time-out. Gaudreau got back in the lineup, and things just started clicking for him. I just have never seen a Gaudreau who has given up on a puck battle, or failed to backcheck, or a kid I look at and say: "He isn't competing very hard."

Sven did (and still does) have a tremendously high ceiling. He just strikes me as one of those lazy players out there. Then he turns it up for half a shift when he is creating something, and we all remember "This kid has some sick skills!", and we all fall in love with him again.

I can understand Hartley not wanting to play this kid. When every other player is seemingly skating hard on the backcheck, competing hard in every puck battle, and earning every inch of ice time they get, how could you take away ice time from someone else in order to give it to a kid who wasn't doing those things?

Gaudreau is a great comparison as to what Sven SHOULD have been doing. Granlund is another one - kid makes a tonne of mistakes, gets his ice time reduced/scratched, gets sent up and down from Adirondack, but each time you see him on the ice he is competing hard. It isn't just about not producing offensively or not, it is about competing hard and at least skating back hard.

Hartley's system is rather 'easy' on paper - but difficult to play. It isn't much different than Brent Sutter's system. It really relies on the forwards skating back hard to help on defence, and for the entire team to break out as a unit. The big difference is that Hartley allows passing straight up the middle and has a preference against cycling (since the team is undersized, that makes total sense). That is why everyone - the forwards especially - have to skate hard. That is why Hartley has preached physical fitness to no end. That is why the Flames upgraded their trainer when the opportunity arose.

The Flames have the culture and identity of being a very hard-working team - a team that is 'beating the odds'. Sven ran very contrary to that. Reading his comments post trade, it makes the difference even more glaring. Gaudreau fits PERFECTLY the mantra of this team of hard work. Sven did not.

What I do look forward to for the next while at least - Sven busting and going to Europe, or him finally 'getting it' and becoming a good NHL'er - is the Vancouver fanbase becoming polarized just like the Calgary fan base has become in the last 2 years.

You know when I thought Sven might finally break out of it and start realizing his potential? When the Flames threw him on a line with Jooris and Byron - two of the most hump-busting players on the team. Two guys with absolute non-stop motors. I have never seen Sven skate so much in a game. Too bad it didn't last long enough. It stopped, and shortly thereafter, Sven got demoted (again).

[heep223]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

Sven Baertschi trade thread: How is this still a thing?

Because people like you keep bumping it, wondering why it's still a thing!

[heep223]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

Sven Baertschi trade thread: How is this still a thing?

Because people like you keep bumping it, wondering why it's still a thing!

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

A lot of that quote sounds like someone is filling his head with bad advice. "Gee Sven, they're asking you to do stuff that wasn't what got you drafted. You were drafted night for a reason".

Yeah, this is and always has been bad advice for making the NHL unless your name is Gretzky or play for the present day Oilers. They're my pick for Sven's next stop.