Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Locke

Knowing that EV's range can change based on uncontrollable circumstances? I dont like that.

You're not going to believe this, but ICE range is affected by uncontrollable circumstances too.

If your daily commute is 60 km total, what makes you think you'll burn through the entire battery in one day?

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

You're not going to believe this, but ICE range is affected by uncontrollable circumstances too.

If your daily commute is 60 km total, what makes you think you'll burn through the entire battery in one day?

The first 50 years of ICE were a useless Luxery item. Any idot in 1870 knew that a horse was the only reliable way to get around.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Locke

Go on....

I mean, without the sort of condescending tone. Because the thing is, I'm the kind of guy who charges his phone all night even though its at 88%.

Done using headphones? Charge them.

Knowing that EV's range can change based on uncontrollable circumstances? I dont like that.

Do you fuel your car every day on your way home just in case?

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Do you fuel your car every day on your way home just in case?

No one does, but they can.

[puffnstuff]

Not no one... oh wait i thought that said never fuels their car and you were talking about my wife

[#-3]

I own an EV, and I didn't really find it to be a big deal. battery was low on Saturday, because yes it was getting about half its normal range (for the record very expense, about 1/3 the price of gasoline/km during these cold times, instead of the 1/6 I normally get).

Saturday night, I didn't plug it in when I got home, checked the AESO supply/demand report at 12:30 looked good, so I plugged it in, will probably do the same thing tonight. In the winter because the range does go down pretty fast and things can come up, I like to keep it topped up.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

You're not going to believe this, but ICE range is affected by uncontrollable circumstances too.

If your daily commute is 60 km total, what makes you think you'll burn through the entire battery in one day?

Maybe you don't live on the edge like Locke and I, but we are always prepared to be able to make a run for the border.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

You're not going to believe this, but ICE range is affected by uncontrollable circumstances too.

Not nearly to the extent that ICE range is, however. And the more extreme the temperature, the more severe the drop is for EVs. This is just a fact of the technology.

However, EVs don't lose efficiency when you go up in elevation (given temperatures being equal) as you notice when you drive a non-turbo ICE vehicle at sea-level in Vancouver and then in Calgary. Non-turbo ICE vehicles will see a noticeable performance and economy hit in Calgary compared to driving in Vancouver, but the EV will perform identically.

The annoying thing is how long it takes to refuel / recharge. Five minutes at a petrol station and an ICE vehicle is full and good to go again, so if you've been putting off refueling for a while and nearly on fumes, a refuel to full is a quick inconvenience. Do the same thing with an EV and it's at least 20-30 minutes just to get to what, 80%? And that assumes you started at 10%.

[Torture]

The annoying thing is how long it takes to refuel / recharge. Five minutes at a petrol station and an ICE vehicle is full and good to go again, so if you've been putting off refueling for a while and nearly on fumes, a refuel to full is a quick inconvenience. Do the same thing with an EV and it's at least 20-30 minutes just to get to what, 80%? And that assumes you started at 10%.

True, but on the other hand, if you're just using your EV locally, you don't have to stop at the gas station every week-ish, you just plug it in when you get home and it's always topped off.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Torture

True, but on the other hand, if you're just using your EV locally, you don't have to stop at the gas station every week-ish, you just plug it in when you get home and it's always topped off.

Ugh, I expanded on that in the Automotive thread and realized after "Huh, this would have been a good point to bring up in the ABPOL thread". D'oh.

The counterpoint to that is the flawed organic bit between the seat and steering wheel. Procrastination to the point that the vehicle is running on fumes is a 5-minute fix, especially with petrol stations being in such abundance. Until charging infrastructure becomes as ubiquitous as petrol stations are, doing the same thing in an EV is a +20 minute affair, easily, not including finding a charging station.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Five minutes at a petrol station and an ICE vehicle is full and good to go again

Yes, but you've got a loooong way to go from Calgary to find a 'petrol' station

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Yes, but you've got a loooong way to go from Calgary to find a 'petrol' station

I've got you, bud.

[Fuzz]

It has never been more important to improve the resiliency of Alberta's watersheds.

https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?x...91AD4AABE0B9C0


...which is why we've allowed so much logging in K-country...or somesuch bull####. It's funny how much they tell us they do the right thing with $3.5 million, while doing the wrong thing in so many other areas.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Ugh, I expanded on that in the Automotive thread and realized after "Huh, this would have been a good point to bring up in the ABPOL thread". D'oh.

The counterpoint to that is the flawed organic bit between the seat and steering wheel. Procrastination to the point that the vehicle is running on fumes is a 5-minute fix, especially with petrol stations being in such abundance. Until charging infrastructure becomes as ubiquitous as petrol stations are, doing the same thing in an EV is a +20 minute affair, easily, not including finding a charging station.

We have two vehicles. A plug in hybrid minivan and a small ICE car. When you get out of the van you plug it in. It's not a thing you think about, you just do it.

My car is always about to run dry because I procrastinate. I literally had to get gas on the coldest part of the coldest day because I procrastinate and wasn't sure I had enough gas to make the 4.5km downhill trip to work. To fill up my car I actually have to do something which requires a modicum of planning.

I don't think your point makes sense to anyone with experience plugging in a car

[MissTeeks]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1747319029973594203

[Torture]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?x...91AD4AABE0B9C0


...which is why we've allowed so much logging in K-country...or somesuch bull####. It's funny how much they tell us they do the right thing with $3.5 million, while doing the wrong thing in so many other areas.

Don't forget the coal mines!

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Ugh, I expanded on that in the Automotive thread and realized after "Huh, this would have been a good point to bring up in the ABPOL thread". D'oh.

The counterpoint to that is the flawed organic bit between the seat and steering wheel. Procrastination to the point that the vehicle is running on fumes is a 5-minute fix, especially with petrol stations being in such abundance. Until charging infrastructure becomes as ubiquitous as petrol stations are, doing the same thing in an EV is a +20 minute affair, easily, not including finding a charging station.

Procrastination for something as easy as plugging in the car once you get home though is something that is not as flawed as having to drive 5-10 minutes to go get gas. And since you don't use the entire battery in one day, you're talking like 5-7 days of procrastination that takes 15 seconds at any point within your own home to fix. If you have an attached garage, you don't even need to put on clothes to go fix this problem.

I guess you can say at some point the most dim witted and most flawed people will have to get EV's and maybe it IS a real issue and not just one you have dreamt up in your head, but I just can't see it - by the time this type of person gets EV's, maybe charging technology will have improved to the point that we all have level 3 chargers inside our houses, and it is a quick 5-10 min affair to fill up from 0% to 80%.

[Fuzz]

We aren't going to have level 3 in homes, it's just too much voltage and amperage(for normal, not rich people).


It's easy to hand wave away challenges, and even easier for those who have no issues to say "see, it's this easy" but everyone has different lives, needs, challenges etc. Not everyone has a garage and charging for every vehicle everyone at the house needs. Street parking means no charging. Driveway? Well, that's another expensive charger, and maybe not so nice to have to plug in every day. People get busy grabbing groceries or kids and forget to plug in. So the consequences of having a low charge in an EV are typically worse than being low on gas, and the solution is not 5 minutes.


I think people just need to have a realistic view and info before they get soured by Great Expectations.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Not nearly to the extent that ICE range is, however. And the more extreme the temperature, the more severe the drop is for EVs. This is just a fact of the technology.

However, EVs don't lose efficiency when you go up in elevation (given temperatures being equal) as you notice when you drive a non-turbo ICE vehicle at sea-level in Vancouver and then in Calgary. Non-turbo ICE vehicles will see a noticeable performance and economy hit in Calgary compared to driving in Vancouver, but the EV will perform identically.

Interesting point on the elevation. Elevation also affects aerodynamics, and EVs are more suffer more range loss by aero at highway speeds. So an EV cruising at highway speed in Calgary will do better than the same in Vancouver. Of course the same thing applies to ICE, which would partially offset the issue you describe. Of course it's all pretty inconsequential.

The other thing would be winter gas vs summer gas (and really temperature in general). So your winter ICE tank does have less range than your summer tank.

Cold weather and winter driving conditions can significantly reduce fuel economy. Fuel economy tests show that, in city driving, a conventional gasoline car's gas mileage is roughly 15% lower at 20°F than it would be at 77°F. It can drop as much as 24% for short (3- to 4-mile) trips.

Cold weather effects can vary by vehicle model. However, expect conventional gasoline vehicles to suffer a 10% to 20% fuel economy loss in city driving and a 15% to 33% loss on short trips.

The effect on hybrids is typically greater - with fuel economy dropping about 30% to 34% under these conditions. For hybrids, fuel economy typically decreases by 20% to 40% in city driving and 25% to 45% on short trips.

For electric vehicles (EVs), fuel economy can drop roughly 39% in mixed city and highway driving, and range can drop by 41%. About two-thirds of the extra energy consumed is used to heat the cabin. When the cabin heater is not used, EV fuel economy is 8% lower at 20°F than at 75°F. Driving range is about 12% lower.

https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/f...y-cold-weather

The heater point is pretty interesting, though apples to apples an ICE starting from a heated garage won't suffer as much loss. But there is probably an argument for a lot of people that if they cleaned out their garage to park a new EV the seasonal differences would be no more consequential than their ICE starting from their driveway (but of course this is apples to oranges).

[TorqueDog]

You aren't driving around at 20°F for a good length of time without turning the heater on, so as a 'solution', the EV takes a bigger efficiency hit in colder temperatures because the heat produced from the ICE as a byproduct of combustion is what's used to heat the cabin, whereas the EV has to expend additional electricity to increase cabin temperature. A petri dish style test where you don't turn on the heater is interesting when looking solely at the powertrains themselves, but that's not how people use them. It's like bragging a Toyota Prius can go 0-6 MPH faster than a Dodge Viper, it means nothing in practical terms.

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

We have two vehicles. A plug in hybrid minivan and a small ICE car. When you get out of the van you plug it in. It's not a thing you think about, you just do it.

My car is always about to run dry because I procrastinate. I literally had to get gas on the coldest part of the coldest day because I procrastinate and wasn't sure I had enough gas to make the 4.5km downhill trip to work. To fill up my car I actually have to do something which requires a modicum of planning.

I don't think your point makes sense to anyone with experience plugging in a car

I don't think you've considered people who don't live in a house with a garage, or a building where each parking stall has a plug-in or, hell, may not even get anything other than on-street permit parking, which I would wager based off of this is likely around 40% of dwellings.