American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Just a guy

You are taking one part of the comment and using it to backstop your bias. Yes high prices do drive down demand and leads to lower prices. That is the point where things will level out. I made the point that there will be wealthy and poor people, so not sure where you think my statement was wrong.

I get that you have a hate for anyone that has a great deal of wealth and think they should be stripped of their wealth to pay for things that you want. You just don't want to or have the ability to go get these on your own. I say that not maliciously, but as an observation of your arguments over time. You want to change something go do it. Sitting on a discussion board with a majority of like minded folks isn't going to change the world

Can you provide an example of a good in the last 30 years that has come down in price and ended up staying low?

Not including technology because that's related to expanded manufacturing/exploitational labor.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Just a guy

You are taking one part of the comment and using it to backstop your bias. Yes high prices do drive down demand and leads to lower prices. That is the point where things will level out. I made the point that there will be wealthy and poor people, so not sure where you think my statement was wrong.

I get that you have a hate for anyone that has a great deal of wealth and think they should be stripped of their wealth to pay for things that you want. You just don't want to or have the ability to go get these on your own. I say that not maliciously, but as an observation of your arguments over time. You want to change something go do it. Sitting on a discussion board with a majority of like minded folks isn't going to change the world

Ah, ok you are one of those guys. Got it. Meanwhile I spend 1.5 months dealing with an insurance company to get a necessary medication covered for a disease I lost the lottery on, and they use every trick in the book to deny it. This is how they get rich, by charging us for services and ####ing us over. But oh, hey, you've got it all figured out and I just haven't worked hard enough in my life, and shouldn't criticize those who have obscene wealth, nothing to spend it on, and gather more and more. Have you considered getting bent lately?

[Just a guy]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Can you provide an example of a good in the last 30 years that has come down in price and ended up staying low?

Not including technology because that's related to expanded manufacturing/exploitational labor.

Look at any of the commodities (oil, grain, metals, fertilizer,...) these fluctuate a great deal on supply and demand and are the base of the products that you and I buy.

As for consumer goods, look at what you buy in a vehicle today versus 20 or more years ago. The vehicle you but is much more refined to the point where even a plain Jane vehicle is better equipped than most vehicles of yore. So price may not have come down, but value has increased substantially.

A couple off the top of my head

[2Stonedbirds]

Man, I hate insurance companies as much as the next guy, what with their liscence to print money, but you don't have to constantly be a dick to anyone with a different viewpoint.

[Azure]

Trickle down is a scam, but only because the government coined the phrase to justify their actions.

But it is amusing. Everyone bitches and moans about their hardships, but keeps voting for the same morons who repeat the same cycle.

And especially these days its really easy to manipulate people to vote in certain directions. OMG TRUMP IS HITLER!! MAAGAAHAA!! BIDEN IS ON TOP OF HIS GAME!!!!

Sad, really how easily people are duped.

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by Just a guy

Look at any of the commodities (oil, grain, metals, fertilizer,...) these fluctuate a great deal on supply and demand and are the base of the products that you and I buy.

As for consumer goods, look at what you buy in a vehicle today versus 20 or more years ago. The vehicle you but is much more refined to the point where even a plain Jane vehicle is better equipped than most vehicles of yore. So price may not have come down, but value has increased substantially.

A couple off the top of my head

As an aside to this point, if GMC came back with the 67-72 body style, and the truck was IDENTICAL to what they sold back then, save maybe fuel injection cuz muh enviroment, I'd buy two.
Don't need onstar, don't need apple play, don't need 7 cameras, pulsating seats with excrement catch trays... just a set of wheels.

[2Stonedbirds]

Damnit now I miss Big Red again.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by GGG

The reduction in taxation that allows these profits is supposed to go into the economy to be spent which is supposed to lift up everyone.

So yes if trickle down economics worked the high stock prices would be reflective of overall prosperity.

And the stock market has what to do with that?

Because what you're saying sounds like a taxation problem. Or maybe a problem with the government spending money on useless #### and not spending it on useful services like health care.

Has nothing do with people at Nvidia getting rich because they ended up working for a company that ended up making a product that the world really needs, and they got stock options throughout their tenure of working there, and now the stock is worth a lot of money.

At some point people are whining for the sake of whining while they keep voting Liberal/PC/NDP or whatever thinking they will be fiscally responsible next go around.

[Just a guy]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Ah, ok you are one of those guys. Got it. Meanwhile I spend 1.5 months dealing with an insurance company to get a necessary medication covered for a disease I lost the lottery on, and they use every trick in the book to deny it. This is how they get rich, by charging us for services and ####ing us over. But oh, hey, you've got it all figured out and I just haven't worked hard enough in my life, and shouldn't criticize those who have obscene wealth, nothing to spend it on, and gather more and more. Have you considered getting bent lately?

First, sorry to hear you have had bad luck in the disease department.

Not saying you haven't worked hard on anything. I did say that complaining on a discussion board isn't going to change the world. You want affirmation of your bias, sure come on here. You want to make the insurance company (and I have zero love of insurance companies) pay, then get out and organize with like minded folks to change it.

Yes I am one of those guys. Don't complain, either accept or work to change.

As I said earlier, no malicious intent. Just observation

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

Man, I hate insurance companies as much as the next guy, what with their liscence to print money, but you don't have to constantly be a dick to anyone with a different viewpoint.

I find the viewpoint that people have what they have based on how hard they work is pretty dickish, and entirely unjustifiable. He went there immediately.

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I find the viewpoint that people have what they have based on how hard they work is pretty dickish, and entirely unjustifiable. He went there immediately.

Well thats just like... your opinion, man.

Still don't have to tell him to get bent. Pretty dickish.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

Well thats just like... your opinion, man.

Still don't have to tell him to get bent. Pretty dickish.

OK, I rescind my request for him to consider bending himself.

[Just a guy]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I find the viewpoint that people have what they have based on how hard they work is pretty dickish, and entirely unjustifiable. He went there immediately.

Again, didn't say you didn't work hard. Said that you seem to have a hate on for things and sitting here attacking me or others isn't going to change things. Reread what I posted.

If saying that you are responsible for how you react makes me a dick, then I guess I am

[Just a guy]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

As an aside to this point, if GMC came back with the 67-72 body style, and the truck was IDENTICAL to what they sold back then, save maybe fuel injection cuz muh enviroment, I'd buy two.
Don't need onstar, don't need apple play, don't need 7 cameras, pulsating seats with excrement catch trays... just a set of wheels.

Agree 💯

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Azure

And the stock market has what to do with that?

Because what you're saying sounds like a taxation problem. Or maybe a problem with the government spending money on useless #### and not spending it on useful services like health care.

Has nothing do with people at Nvidia getting rich because they ended up working for a company that ended up making a product that the world really needs, and they got stock options throughout their tenure of working there, and now the stock is worth a lot of money.

At some point people are whining for the sake of whining while they keep voting Liberal/PC/NDP or whatever thinking they will be fiscally responsible next go around.

It's not complicated, unless you really have no idea what trickle down economics means. I mean, of course it's a taxation problem because that was the whole point of it. In fact it's quite simple. The idea is:

1) Reduce taxes on the wealthy and remove regulations.

2) This will create more economic activity and growth.

3) That growth will lead to higher paying jobs for the population.

Obviously that didn't ever happen. Real GDP per capita in the US has grown 109% since the late '70s. In that same time period, real wages are only up 9.8%. So where did all that growth go? Into the hands of the wealthy who are the beneficiaries of the tax and economic policies of the last 40 years.

As to how the stock market plays into it, it's exactly like GGG said. If the benefits of economic growth were more widely shared across demographics, then you would expect there to be some correlation between wages and the stock market. And there was for a long time. Real wages grew pretty quickly after WWII into the early '70s, which matches what the S&P 500 did (after adjusting for inflation). Then the stock market declined on a real basis as did wages into the early '80s. At that point, they went in completely different directions. The stock market went up 7-8x after inflation over the next 20 years while real wages were completely stagnant. And that has continued to this day with wealth and earnings increasingly being concentrated in the hands of the richest.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Azure

Comments like this are fascinating.

I admit that I knew next to nothing about Vance prior to him being the VP pick, but as soon as you take 5 min to read about his economic ideas, mostly about re industrializing the midwest one should quickly realize that Canada could be a major part of that.

American manufacturing can be supported by natural resources from Canada. Especially if we know that clean energy production will likely be a huge part of the future going forward when it comes to manufacturing, and knowing that Canada has what the world needs.

But given our history as a country, I guess we'll resort to MAAGAAGAQA!!!!! omg don't let them build dirty lithium & copper mines, similar to the anti-natural gas bull#### phase we've been dealing with the past 25 years.

I suspect that given Trudeau's push to get manufacturers from the US & Europe to realize this, that they were able to put aside their petty stupidity for 5 seconds and see a future where Canada and the US can both benefit, again.

You can't make that assumption, though.

At best, NAFTA benefits, and companies continue to flow into Mexico to take advantage of the emerging industrial market there.

At worst, Trump comes after NAFTA again and we are again fighting for a place at the table.

In reality, the move to re-industrialize continues to take place in southern US States where they offer tax incentives and lower labour standards, rather than the rust belt.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Azure

Trickle down is a scam, but only because the government coined the phrase to justify their actions.

But it is amusing. Everyone bitches and moans about their hardships, but keeps voting for the same morons who repeat the same cycle.

And especially these days its really easy to manipulate people to vote in certain directions. OMG TRUMP IS HITLER!! MAAGAAHAA!! BIDEN IS ON TOP OF HIS GAME!!!!

Sad, really how easily people are duped.

Yeah, #### all those Biden stans! such a cult

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Just a guy

Using your post, but also more as a general comment from what I am reading.

Using Elon Musk as the example, how many people are employed at his companies? These are also well paying jobs. How much has these companies paid out over time just to employees? To suppliers (more jobs) and contractors (more jobs)? I don’t know that I would call this trickle down, but just normal business, but on a scale much larger than say Pete the Plumber! The question is “How much money has Elon Musk put back into the economy?”.

I like how a lot of people compare the paper worth of Elon Musk and others, versus actual cash wealth. They want to tax an unrealized profit from share holding, which may decline the following year. How often have we heard of someone losing billions in a day due to market activity? These billions could have been taxed the day before. Is that fair?

As for increased costs, this hurts the more as you move down the economic scale. More and more people will decide not to buy something due to the costs (example: one less trip to McDonalds for the kids this month). The old saying that there is no better cure for high prices than high prices themselves. High prices reduce demand!

Knowing it is not this simplistic, but when you print more money and there is not a corresponding growth in product and services, then you are devaluing the money, which leads to inflation. Water will always find its level and that is what we are seeing. Some people are making out like bandits and others are being hurt. This will change over time once the turmoil settles down. Not saying there won’t always be wealthy people and poor people, because there will. Just that market forces will normalize things in the long run.

My thoughts!

This is a tough one. As the majority of large shareholders (and wealthy in general) use the Buy, Borrow, Die strategy to avoid taxes.

It's a clear and legal tax loophole that allows billionaires to skirt paying little, if any taxes and shouldn't just be seen as people wanting to tax unrealized profit.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Just a guy

Using your post, but also more as a general comment from what I am reading.

I like how a lot of people compare the paper worth of Elon Musk and others, versus actual cash wealth. They want to tax an unrealized profit from share holding, which may decline the following year. How often have we heard of someone losing billions in a day due to market activity? These billions could have been taxed the day before. Is that fair?

My thoughts!

I’d have less of an issue with unrealized capital gains if the ultra wealthy couldn’t take loans out against their stock positions to avoid selling stock and triggering a tax event.
The world is a more stable and happy place with a healthy middle class and the increasing wealth gap is concerning. Putting money in the hands of the bulk of the population is much better than massive wealth hoarding.

[calgarygeologist]

Another big blow to Biden's campaign as Representative Adam Schiff is urging him to withdraw and let someone else run for President.