Israel declares war on Hamas

[WinnipegFan]

It is amazing to watch people who are untouched by the tragedies of these events sit on the recliner and dictate the blame, potential outcomes, and history. I imagine it’s the same couch coaches that yell at their TV during a Flames game.

We can’t comprehend the loss, we don’t understand the complexity of the hatred. Hamas is wrong, period. They need to be wiped out. Unfortunately, when these groups go down the citizens they use as shields suffer. It is terrible.

Israel ain’t perfect but I’d love to see all of you react so compassionately if terrorists attacked Calgary. Imagine one of our indigenous groups decided to bomb, shoot, rape, and decimate children in Calgary. I’m sure all of you would be saying well #### Canada did some bad #### so we shouldn’t retaliate. You’d all be reving the engines of your F-150 lined up to get your gun and revenge.

It is easy to sit on your couch and comment on global politics. Right now what we need to do is hug our families, appreciate our blessings, and hope that as few innocents are hurt as possible. No one, and I mean no one, in a military uniform wants to hurt innocents. However, very few of us have held a gun in a fire fight just like most of us have never held a stick in a hockey game. So let’s be reserved in our opinions and commentary.

[FlamesAddiction]

One thing that has become apparent to me through all this is that because of old colonial and racist habits, Israel is held to a higher standard than other countries in the region. People are asking Israel to practice restraint congruent with what Western democracies expect, but when Arabs go in and complete a massacre of Israeli civilians, the narrative is about how angry the Gazans must be and we can't expect restraint from people so angry. Really, from a wider perspective, Israel should be honored that some people hold them to a higher standard, but Arabs should be insulted because those same people don't see them as moral equals.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by WinnipegFan

Unfortunately, when these groups go down the citizens they use as shields suffer. It is terrible.

Israel ain’t perfect but I’d love to see all of you react so compassionately if terrorists attacked Calgary. Imagine one of our indigenous groups decided to bomb, shoot, rape, and decimate children in Calgary. I’m sure all of you would be saying well #### Canada did some bad #### so we shouldn’t retaliate. You’d all be reving the engines of your F-150 lined up to get your gun and revenge.

I do have to object to using Canada's Indigenous in an example like this. They have shown a lot of restraint and civility considering everything they went through as a people, compared to the lack of civility that the colonial powers exercised on them. I can't even entertain the thought that they would resort to such things, even as a thought experiment.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

You have never accepted the idea of the right of the Jewish people to live in their own state in biblical Israel in any event so your argument along with about everything else you say is total bull####.

O look another person using the BIBLE as a reason. Shocking.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Census Canada has the black Canadian population at 1.5 million or approximately 4.3% of the Canadian population

Jewish Canadians have a population of about 335,000 or roughly 1% of the Canadian population.

Your point?

Mine was he said that they were the most attacked. They are not . Blacks regardless of religion are. My point still stands regardless.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Ok. So Hamas doesn't believe that releasing hostages will bring back power&water. Does it in any way justify taking hostages? Guess not. So, they should release hostages regardless, whether they believe Israel or not, because holding hostages is a war crime and more importantly generally wrong. Once they are released, you can argue that cutting power and water entirely might be an overkill. But not until then.

And request to free north does make military sense, as explained above.

Did I or anyone else say that Hamas was in anyway justified in taking hostages?

The point is, what Israel is doing does not on any way look like it's actually connected to the hostage situation, nor does it look like they are doing things with the intention of ending the crisis through the use of force, which is what I would expect a country to do.

If they want to occupy Gaza to snuff out Hamas, I'm for it. But they don't look like they want to try to snuff out Hamas. They are also doing nothing that looks like an action taken to get the hostages back. It's extremely hard to even argue that their actions overall are even likely to damage Hamas more than the average Palestinian.

Israel is mostly just attacking Gaza overall. They do this shuffle where Hamas is on one hand the government of Gaza so they represent all of Gaza so all of Gaza is a legitimate target, but simultaneously Hamas is an illegitimate completely irrational terrorist organization taking advantage of the people of Gaza, which means their grievances don't represent represent real grievances of millions of people, that they aren't a party you should talk with, you can claim that destroying anything Hamas is good for the people of Gaza actually sorry about the collateral damage...

And people on this forum are eating up this rhetoric all they way. Hamas to some people in this discussion is always whatever justifies whatever Israel is doing. The only justification people need to defend anything Israel does is that Hamas is bad, and even if Israel is also bad, Hamas is more bad so Israel is again justified to do whatever it wants to do.

Even when there is no apparent connection between what Israel is doing and what Israel says is the goal of what they are doing.

Btw, what's the number of Palestinian civilians need to die before what Israel is doing is 1) an overreaction 2) indefensible?

About 1200 civilians died in the Hamas attacks. We are currently sitting at about 1900 dead Palestinian Civilians. This is close enough to a 1:1 ratio that I would think many would say this is acceptable, assuming some goals were achieved while doing this. And I would think most would agree that some goals have been achieved, at least in the short term, even if it was nothing more than a retaliation. Retaliation is a goal in itself, after all. (Even if not everyone agrees it's an acceptable goal, we can probably just accept that it's commonly accepted enough that there's not muxh point in debating it.)

What's an unacceptable exchange ratio, and what are things that affect that number for you?

Is actually getting hostages back successfully a factor? How many civilian casualties are justified per hostage returned? 100? 1000? What if Israel gets no hostages back and the security situation afterwards is the same as it was after the 2021 crisis, only with the population of Gaza in an even worse situation than before?

What would be a scenario where you would either say that what Israel did was wrong, or the way they tried to do things was misguided and made things worse?

I would assume that most here would agree that genociding 2 million Palestinians would be too much, and clearly people are okay for some to die.

So where's the line for you, and what are factors that move that line for you, one way or the other? How much would be too much for you?

I'm asking seriously for people to lay out their thinking here. Something more than "Hamas is bad and Israel must do something".

[Yoho]

What were you thinking Israel would do after the attack?
A little tit for tat and call it a day so the cycle continues?

God forgives, Isreal doesn’t. This will go on till it doesn’t and then cooler heads will prevail.

I like David Sacks thoughts on it all.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1711544829828862144

[Itse]

For myself, I have stated that I think Israel should in the immediate negotiate with Hamas for the return of the hostages (a "prisoner exchange" should be offered because that's a tangible thing that can't easily be taken back so Hamas would likely be interested).

And then Israel should probably declare that they are going to re-occupy Gaza with the longterm goal of assimilating the population there into the state of Israel as citizens. Half the population of Gaza are minors, this is not a lost cause. Find people in Gaza who agree with this goal and make them allies, fight Hamas and anyone else who violently disagrees.

I can accept civilian casualties that are the result of actions that are trying to make things bettee.

I don't accept what looks like violence for it's own sake with the vague hope that somehow violence is going to make Hamas give some hostages back... and even if they do get them back, then what?

If what's achieved will end up being getting the hostages back while Gaza is an even worse place to live and nothing else has really changed, then that's just sticking to a path we have already seen will lead to more Hamas attacks in the future.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Yoho

What were you thinking Israel would do after the attack?
A little too tit for tat and call it a day so the cycle continues?

God forgives, Isreal doesn’t. This will go on till it doesn’t and then cooler heads will prevail.

I like David Sacks thoughts on it all.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1711544829828862144

Okay so if this is just tit for tat, then would you agree that we're already there and Israel should now stop?

One and a half Palestinians dead for every Israeli is surely enough tit for the tat?

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by Itse

Okay so if this is just tit for tat, then would you agree that we're already there and Israel should now stop?

One and a half Palestinians dead for every Israeli is surely enough tit for the tat?

I don’t think this will be tit for tat at all.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Itse

Did I or anyone else say that Hamas was in anyway justified in taking hostages?

The point is, what Israel is doing does not on any way look like it's actually connected to the hostage situation, nor does it look like they are doing things with the intention of ending the crisis through the use of force, which is what I would expect a country to do.

If they want to occupy Gaza to snuff out Hamas, I'm for it. But they don't look like they want to try to snuff out Hamas. They are also doing nothing that looks like an action taken to get the hostages back. It's extremely hard to even argue that their actions overall are even likely to damage Hamas more than the average Palestinian.

Israel is mostly just attacking Gaza overall. They do this shuffle where Hamas is on one hand the government of Gaza so they represent all of Gaza so all of Gaza is a legitimate target, but simultaneously Hamas is an illegitimate completely irrational terrorist organization taking advantage of the people of Gaza, which means their grievances don't represent represent real grievances of millions of people, that they aren't a party you should talk with, you can claim that destroying anything Hamas is good for the people of Gaza actually sorry about the collateral damage...

And people on this forum are eating up this rhetoric all they way. Hamas to some people in this discussion is always whatever justifies whatever Israel is doing. The only justification people need to defend anything Israel does is that Hamas is bad, and even if Israel is also bad, Hamas is more bad so Israel is again justified to do whatever it wants to do.

Even when there is no apparent connection between what Israel is doing and what Israel says is the goal of what they are doing.

Btw, what's the number of Palestinian civilians need to die before what Israel is doing is 1) an overreaction 2) indefensible?

About 1200 civilians died in the Hamas attacks. We are currently sitting at about 1900 dead Palestinian Civilians. This is close enough to a 1:1 ratio that I would think many would say this is acceptable, assuming some goals were achieved while doing this. And I would think most would agree that some goals have been achieved, at least in the short term, even if it was nothing more than a retaliation. Retaliation is a goal in itself, after all. (Even if not everyone agrees it's an acceptable goal, we can probably just accept that it's commonly accepted enough that there's not muxh point in debating it.)

What's an unacceptable exchange ratio, and what are things that affect that number for you?

Is actually getting hostages back successfully a factor? How many civilian casualties are justified per hostage returned? 100? 1000? What if Israel gets no hostages back and the security situation afterwards is the same as it was after the 2021 crisis, only with the population of Gaza in an even worse situation than before?

What would be a scenario where you would either say that what Israel did was wrong, or the way they tried to do things was misguided and made things worse?

I would assume that most here would agree that genociding 2 million Palestinians would be too much, and clearly people are okay for some to die.

So where's the line for you, and what are factors that move that line for you, one way or the other? How much would be too much for you?

I'm asking seriously for people to lay out their thinking here. Something more than "Hamas is bad and Israel must do something".

Ultimately I'm a utilitarian, I view this as a war of sorts, declared by Hamas, as in any war while civilian casualties are regrettable and a civilised country has an obligation not to cause them gratuitously at the same time no one in the allies ever cared how many German or Japanese civilians died in the second world war, I really can't see it is reasonable to ask Israel to 'take it dry' as my kids would say just because Hamas hides amongst its most vunerable

I view the whole conflict as hopeless, the Palestinians wish for a homeland based around the pre 1967 border is never going to happen, at best they will get Gaza and what they have now in the West Bank and there not a dam thing that will change that, right wrong or otherwise that's just reality, I also think the endless war is poisoning Israel, turning it into an extremist society as well.

Do more Palestinians die in the long run if things stay the way they are? an endless low level war with a permanent blockade or does a one time horrific conflict that finally ends Palestinian dreams for any kind of reasonable homeland allow them to move on and find an alternative to endlessly dashed hopes, poverty and refugee camps.

Gaza has no economy, it's only source of income, water, food and power is from Israel and they are never opening that border after this, there will be no more work permits, maybe a trickle of water is allowed but I cannot see any future for Gaza after this unless it comes from Egypt, it is utterly unreasonable to expect Israel to cooperate with Gaza economically after this for decades possibly forever.

To be clear none of this is about right or wrong or history, it's just about power, one side has all of it, the other none

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by WinnipegFan

It is amazing to watch people who are untouched by the tragedies of these events sit on the recliner and dictate the blame, potential outcomes, and history.

Then does exactly that.

Originally Posted by WinnipegFan

No one, and I mean no one, in a military uniform wants to hurt innocents. However, very few of us have held a gun in a fire fight just like most of us have never held a stick in a hockey game. So let’s be reserved in our opinions and commentary.

That's a hell of a statement that flies against the evidence of behavior of American soldiers in Iraq, the Brits in Northern Ireland, the Russians in Ukraine and Israeli soldiers prior, to name a view.

What do you base it on?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

One thing that has become apparent to me through all this is that because of old colonial and racist habits, Israel is held to a higher standard than other countries in the region. People are asking Israel to practice restraint congruent with what Western democracies expect, but when Arabs go in and complete a massacre of Israeli civilians, the narrative is about how angry the Gazans must be and we can't expect restraint from people so angry. Really, from a wider perspective, Israel should be honored that some people hold them to a higher standard, but Arabs should be insulted because those same people don't see them as moral equals.

The bigotry of low expectations.

‘Of course Israel should behave with far more restraint and compassion than Hamas or Egypt.’

Why of course? How do you really feel about a culture or community when you have no expectation that they behave in a civilized manner?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Itse

The point is, what Israel is doing does not on any way look like it's actually connected to the hostage situation, nor does it look like they are doing things with the intention of ending the crisis through the use of force, which is what I would expect a country to do.

If they want to occupy Gaza to snuff out Hamas, I'm for it. But they don't look like they want to try to snuff out Hamas. They are also doing nothing that looks like an action taken to get the hostages back. It's extremely hard to even argue that their actions overall are even likely to damage Hamas more than the average Palestinian.

These are the opening stages of a campaign to remove Hamas from Gaza. To eliminate their members and to destroy the infrastructure (tunnels, bunkers, and weapons stores) that enabled them to launch the attacks of Oct 7. Israel are not dropping bombs randomly - they’re disrupting Hamas and taking out targets as part of a carefully planned offensive to seize Gaza.

People act as though Hamas has zero agency and Israel has 100 per cent agency. That Hamas are just gonna do what they’re going to do, so there’s no point even talking about their actions, but Israel’s leadership have a complete 360 scope of action and can pursue whatever policies or actions they choose.

But after Oct 7, the overriding aim of Israel’s citizens is to remove the threat of Hamas. Period. They feel they are at war. And while they will try to reduce civilian casualties, that war aim isn’t going to be abandoned. Not by the current leadership, or by any other that would hold power even if we ran through 100 alternative history timelines.

It’s in the interests of Israel to achieve its war aim with minimum civilians casualties. Not only because they clearly value life more than Hamas, but because they have an interest in maintaining the goodwill of a significant part of the global community.

However, the notion that they’ll just abandon the war aim of removing Hamas at some arbitrary number of Palestinian deaths - that they’ll do a body count and call things evensies - is not realistic. It’s like expecting the U.S. to do a tally of Japanese dead at some point in 1943 or 1944, declaring the matter resolved justly, and sending the troops home.

Just give me one real-world example of a state responding to an attack of the scale of Oct 7 demonstrating the kind of restraint that many are expecting Israel to show. What’s the template for a judicious response to the kind of threat Hamas have shown they pose to Israel?

I expect in the end, many more Palestinians civilians will die than Israeli. And the lion’s share of blame for that will lie at the feet of Hamas, who with great deliberation and malice set this chain of events in motion with one of the most murderous terrorist attacks in history.

[transplant99]

From Toronto ...."Hamas is not a terrorist group"

Check out her earrings...lol

https://twitter.com/user/status/1713317504812978573

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I expect in the end, many more Palestinians civilians will die than Israeli. And the lion’s share of blame for that will lie at the feet of Hamas, who with great deliberation and malice set this chain of events in motion with one of the most murderous terrorist attacks in history.

How many Palestinian civilians are worth killing to get rid of Hamas, in your opinion?

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The bigotry of low expectations.

‘Of course Israel should behave with far more restraint and compassion than Hamas or Egypt.’

Why of course? How do you really feel about a culture or community when you have no expectation that they behave in a civilized manner?

Some real gigabrain reverse racism thought experiments in here today.

Israel is expected to act differently for the simple reason that they are the oppressor, and they are exceptionally rich and insanely well equipped from being funnelled money and arms from the US hand over fist for 70 years.

Framing it as though it's about religion and not the wartime equivalent of a 30 year old man beating up a 6 year old they keep in a cage is some weird circle jerking by you guys.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Some real gigabrain reverse racism thought experiments in here today.

Israel is expected to act differently for the simple reason that they are the oppressor, and they are exceptionally rich and insanely well equipped from being funnelled money and arms from the US hand over fist for 70 years.

Framing it as though it's about religion and not the wartime equivalent of a 30 year old man beating up a 6 year old they keep in a cage is some weird circle jerking by you guys.

It’s also bizarre to be told repeatedly that Israel is worth defending because they’re so liberal, secular, democratic, etc etc but then the same people scoff at holding them to the same expectation that those things should bring.

“Israel is so great so if you don’t defend them you’re being anti-semitic! But don’t expect them to be greater than terrorists or Egypt, that’s just bigotry.”

Absurd

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by transplant99

From Toronto ...."Hamas is not a terrorist group"

Check out her earrings...lol

https://twitter.com/user/status/1713317504812978573

Oh look, Rebel "reporters" spreading hate and bull####. Surprise surprise. How the #### is it our government allows them to parade around as media again? Particularly Menzies, that bigoted sack of slimy feces. ####ing disgraceful. Maybe stop following people on Xitter who share this trash.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by transplant99

From Toronto ...."Hamas is not a terrorist group"

Check out her earrings...lol

https://twitter.com/user/status/1713317504812978573

I wonder what her CP user name is.