Saddledome literally falling apart

[AFireInside]

I don't really understand the "villains" vs "good guys" argument. Its not rocket science.

Both sides were a mess from the start. Then they got to an agreement. Then the ownership group backed out due to the agreement they made and costs dramatically increasing. I don't even necessarily blame them for backing out with costs sky rocketing.

Would have been much better if they just came out and said due to drastically higher prices we will be postponing construction.

All these games are silly.

[GoatMonkey]

Originally Posted by dino7c

...

Billionaires didn't become billionaires giving money away and making bad deals

Correct. They got there by externalizing/socializing costs and by exploiting the **** out of everybody and everything around them. This is no different.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You are really taking a weird stance on this bringing up smarts. Do you actually believe that smart people should all agree with your opinion on this topic?

Do I believe that smart people should be able to gauge the impact of different actions and not just rack them one for one and say "both sides!". Yeah.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Unless I misunderstand what you mean, the ticket levy would apply to everything.

No, he referred to actual ticket prices rising, which happens for every team when they open a new arena.

Oiler seats jumped between 20 and 25% IIRC, for example

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

No, he referred to actual ticket prices rising, which happens for every team when they open a new arena.

Oiler seats jumped between 20 and 25% IIRC, for example

It's a smaller part of the issue, but I guess I just don't understand why people would champion funding their pathway to charging you more. On the scale of egregiousness in publicly funded arenas, it's not a top tier concern.

Oilers were 25-40% depending on location.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

No, he referred to actual ticket prices rising, which happens for every team when they open a new arena.

Oiler seats jumped between 20 and 25% IIRC, for example

I know but concert tickets, monster truck tickets, whatever else people go to the Saddledome for? etc would all rise too. Not just Flames tickets.

Or maybe I’m still not understanding you.

[Enoch Root]

it's a choice though - people don't have to buy tickets

I imagine that everyone is well aware that a new arena is going to mean higher ticket prices - hell, a ####ty old crumbling arena still means rising ticket prices

[Major Major]

Ya and that rink blows unless you have nice seats. 2nd level dome >>> 2nd level Rogers

[PuckSlap]

Still waiting for this overpass to be finished

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I know but concert tickets, monster truck tickets, whatever else people go to the Saddledome for? etc would all rise too. Not just Flames tickets.

Or maybe I’m still not understanding you.

Everything would have a ticket tax, yes. But that is not what we are discussing. One of the criticisms he presented, was that Flame tickets will rise substantially (excluding the tx), which is true, but as I said, people are free to choose

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

it's a choice though - people don't have to buy tickets

I imagine that everyone is well aware that a new arena is going to mean higher ticket prices - hell, a ####ty old crumbling arena still means rising ticket prices

The tickets are a choice, the tax dollars aren't. Let the people who make that choice pay for it with the ticket tax. Or, let the people who reap the financial reward make the investment in their business. Like everything else.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by nik-

The tickets are a choice, the tax dollars aren't. Let the people who make that choice pay for it with the ticket tax. Or, let the people who reap the financial reward make the investment in their business. Like everything else.

Well, they are. Some percentage of the total cost will be paid by CSEC.

The question is: what percentages make sense. You think 0, which is fine. I disagree. And the fact of the matter is that there are about 300 nights a year that the Flames aren't occupying the arena. Does the city benefit? I think it's pretty easy to say yes. So should they pay for some?

[Kasi]

It’s pretty simple. City works out how much to build their event center they’re willing to do on their own. Flames pay anything over that to have a partnership with them. Pretty simple math.

[Finger Cookin]

15 years since the first public article about the imminent need to replace the 'Dome. How many owners have passed on or been bought out since then? How many mayors and city managers through the turnstiles? How many booms and recessions?

It's pathetic.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160107...40643-sun.html

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Well, they are. Some percentage of the total cost will be paid by CSEC.

The question is: what percentages make sense. You think 0, which is fine. I disagree. And the fact of the matter is that there are about 300 nights a year that the Flames aren't occupying the arena. Does the city benefit? I think it's pretty easy to say yes. So should they pay for some?

I think zero, I understand that's not realistic. These deals are losers for municipalities basically every time. I wasn't happy with the deal that was in place as I think 1/3rd is out of line with where the financial benefits land. I think the city paying for the infrastructure improvements is where it should stay. The Flames are the ones exploding their asset value.

How many actual big draw nights a year are there? 10? 15? So maybe a couple thousand people come in each time for one of these events? Because that's the only actual economic gain. An arena existing doesn't create disposable income in the populace, it just redirects it. The dollars that eventually get to the city are what? I'd be hard pressed to believe that it would be enough to even break even on the quarter billion plus being handed over, let alone have a benefit, over the lifespan of the arena.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Kasi

It’s pretty simple. City works out how much to build their event center they’re
Willing to do on their own. Flames pay anything over that to have a partnership with them. Pretty simple math.

You missing the benefit / advantage of having an arena vs an event centre

I have no idea what that $$ amount is- but it sure isn’t Zero

Is there a single major city in North America without some sort of arena ?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Well, they are. Some percentage of the total cost will be paid by CSEC.

The question is: what percentages make sense. You think 0, which is fine. I disagree. And the fact of the matter is that there are about 300 nights a year that the Flames aren't occupying the arena. Does the city benefit? I think it's pretty easy to say yes. So should they pay for some?

Out of genuine curiosity, how much does the city usually contribute to buildings like TELUS Sky? I have a feeling I’m misinformed in the subject.

I also think the “right” percentage for CSEC to pay gets muddy, considering the deals so far have always also involved ticket levies to cover their costs, no rent and no property taxes, etc.

[Freeway]

Ken King was hired in 2001, replacing Ron Bremner, and the arena was the second thing on his to-do list.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Out of genuine curiosity, how much does the city usually contribute to buildings like TELUS Sky? I have a feeling I’m misinformed in the subject.

I also think the “right” percentage for CSEC to pay gets muddy, considering the deals so far have always also involved ticket levies to cover their costs, no rent and no property taxes, etc.

Generally nothing, but it gets muddy because there are often various incentives, tax breaks, and other ways that they can entice buildings getting erected.

For businesses building them, it is a simple economic formula of cost vs expected rents. Or, if the building is for internal use, a function of whether the cost is warranted (vs renting other space)

These are all over-simplifications of course.

Arenas are more difficult because there are multiple uses, civic issues, etc

[Kasi]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

You missing the benefit / advantage of having an arena vs an event centre

I have no idea what that $$ amount is- but it sure isn’t Zero

Is there a single major city in North America without some sort of arena ?

Then quantify some number for that and agree on it and then Flames pay the rest.