There were players deserving of blame in Hartley's final year here. Jonas Hiller was the worst goaltender in the NHL. Kris Russell and Dennis Wideman were also awful.
But the players on that team who were there then and are here now - Gaudreau, Bennett, Backlund, Monahan, Brodie, Giordano were all strong that year. Anyone who watched that season would remember that. Gaudreau is everyone's whipping boy this year and even he was a plus player that year. Brodie had his best season. Bennett had his best season. Backlund had a near 50 point season. That team was around top ten in scoring before they sold off at the deadline (I think they finished twelvth?).
Hartley got this team to perform at an elite level? What? Our entire strategy under Hartley was to back off and have every skater play goalie for the whole game until the other team got tired of shooting, and then hope to score on odd man rushes. I had a ton of fun in 2014-15 - but we weren't an elite team.
Peters lost four straight games in the playoffs to a wildcard team without any meaningful tactical adjustments. No, Monahan and Gaudreau and Backlund and Lindholm and Tkachuk didn't have very good playoffs. But despite all that the primary issue in the playoffs was how the second defense pair was getting absolutely pummelled to submission and nothing was done to shelter them.
Brodie was our best Dman in the playoffs and he only averaged 22:28. You know what Hartley had Brodie playing in the playoffs? 27:07. Maybe those nearly 4 and a half minutes of ice time could have been shifted towards our top defense pair instead of the second D pair who were atrocious.
Bennett was our best forward in the playoffs and he only averaged 13:14. You know what Hartley had Bennett playing the playoffs, which were games two to twelve of his entire NHL career? 14:01. Seriously, How the heck do you excuse a guy giving you 5 points in 5 games and not think to maybe give him a few extra shifts?
The Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm line was ineffective long before the playoffs. They stopped clicking around the all star break. Despite revisionist history, it wasn't Gaudreau that was the issue on that line down the stretch, it was the other two, particularily Lindholm who stopped shooting altogether. Peters didn't split them up until game 5 of the playoffs. The same Peters who when he first came in (and started winning) had no problems turning on the blender. He was a completely different coach down the stretch and that carried into this season big time.
Beyond that? After game 1 Bednar implemented a forechecking strategy that gave our team fits on the breakout. Peters had no answer. We're not the first team to ever come across a team-specific forecheck in the playoffs - but Peters literally had no counter. The playoffs are about playing chess and Peters was still playing Angry Birds five games in. How the #### was it a "historic season" as you put it when the playoffs were so underwhelming?
But sure, call it mental gymnastics.
This whole rant is just a mish mash of hurt feelings and regrets.
"Hartley got this team to perform at an elite level? What? Our entire strategy under Hartley was to back off and have every skater play goalie for the whole game until the other team got tired of shooting, and then hope to score on odd man rushes"
The Flames were regarded that year as a team that played above their heads because of their fitness level and their ability to weather other teams pushes and counter in the late game. The find a way flames were the reason Hartley won the Jack Adam's. It was a point of pride for them, not a weakness.
You criticize Hartley in one breath but then criticize Peters later because he didnt play players like Bennett and Brodie as much as Hartley did?
You spend a lot of time focusing on a lack of ice time for Bennett and Brodie in the playoffs. I dont feel like they would have moved the needle in any significant way with an extra 5 minutes of ice time.
Or you could get paid for 5 months and wait for any of the 5-10-15 coaching vacancies and call your own shot.
I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but I think if this was the case we would have heard a “Teams have approached Gallant about his willingness to take a job mid-season, however Gallant has informed teams he’s going to wait this out and assess his opportunities in the offseason” type of rumor.
Backlund is having struggles finishing and handling the puck this year but I think it’s unfair to question his heart.
IMO he’s a guy that always gives 100% effort and gives it his all in big games.
He actually leads our forwards in on-ice GF at 5v5 this year (30 tied with Lindholm) and is one of our better forwards in terms of 5v5 on ice goal difference.
I know fans are frustrated with his lack of finish this year (he’s fourth on the team in 5v5 scoring chances and has missed a ton of grade a chances) but give me a guy who’s generating those chances but having trouble finishing over a guy who’s getting caved in and giving up tons of chances at 5v5 any day of the week.
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I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but I think if this was the case we would have heard a “Teams have approached Gallant about his willingness to take a job mid-season, however Gallant has informed teams he’s going to wait this out and assess his opportunities in the offseason” type of rumor.
Well Lebrun interviewed him and confirmed as much,
"What he told me Thursday is that he is in no rush. He’s going to use the rest of the year to decompress. He’s enjoying spending time with family, in fact he’s in Vegas this week tying up some loose ends. He says he has not spoken with any teams since his firing. His phone has been quiet that way.""
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Well Lebrun interviewed him and confirmed as much,
"What he told me Thursday is that he is in no rush. He’s going to use the rest of the year to decompress. He’s enjoying spending time with family, in fact he’s in Vegas this week tying up some loose ends. He says he has not spoken with any teams since his firing. His phone has been quiet that way.""
Also states he hasn’t talked to any teams.
I could be happy at home and in no rush to return. But that’s also what I’m likely going to say if no teams have reached out to me about a position yet as the article states.
Doesn’t say anything about him not being interested if a team were to reach out.
Would be awesome to see a coach to say “It’s B.S I was fired and I can’t wait to get back in another job to show Vegas they were idiots for firing me” but that’s never happening in the uptight hockey world.
Ward clearly believes the players aren’t trying hard enough (as per postgame).
That’s three coaches in three years who have made that claim on more than one occasion. That’s a good gut punch for fans.
###### Ward
Your job includes motivation. Defining the culture that sees them held accountable to each other.
Team needs a coach they respect to set the tone.
Treliving probably has to go because he is likely too political to hire a coach who could get more of the owners’ ears than he is comfortable with.
Promote Conroy to GM and hire Darryl Sutter as head coach now, please.
This whole rant is just a mish mash of hurt feelings and regrets.
"Hartley got this team to perform at an elite level? What? Our entire strategy under Hartley was to back off and have every skater play goalie for the whole game until the other team got tired of shooting, and then hope to score on odd man rushes"
The Flames were regarded that year as a team that played above their heads because of their fitness level and their ability to weather other teams pushes and counter in the late game. The find a way flames were the reason Hartley won the Jack Adam's. It was a point of pride for them, not a weakness.
"fitness level" - ah yes, they were more fit than the other 29 teams. Totally
I already told you that Hartley had aspects of his coaching that were good. Literally in the post you dismissed as "mental gymnastics". But his entire ####ing strategy was to get outshot and score on the counter. It's not a strategy that wins consistently. It doesn't win consistently in the regular season. It doesn't win consistently in the playoffs. It's just a bad strategy long term. That's why Brad Treliving fired him. Brad Treliving explicitely stated that systems were the reason Hartley was let go, when Hartley was let go. I don't know what you're trying to argue.
Quote:
You criticize Hartley in one breath but then criticize Peters later because he didnt play players like Bennett and Brodie as much as Hartley did?
Yeah. Hartley was the best coach out of the last five coaches we have had (a full decade of coaches). And he was still a coach with mickey mouse systems that don't cut it if you plan on winning it all. The last time we had a genuinely good coach was probably Mike Keenan. And before that Darryl Sutter.
We need a good coach again instead of another dud. A hundred bad coaches are still a hundred bad coaches.
Quote:
You spend a lot of time focusing on a lack of ice time for Bennett and Brodie in the playoffs. I dont feel like they would have moved the needle in any significant way with an extra 5 minutes of ice time.
Here were the defense pairs and their ES ice time and their on-ice goals:
Gio-Brodie - 62:13 - 2 GF 1 GA
Hanifin-Hamonic - 77:25 - 1 GF 4 GA
Valimaki-Andersson - 28:12 - 1 GF 0 GA
Fantenberg-Andersson - 19:46 - 1 GF 0 GA
Two of our losses in that series were one goal games. Another, game 5, was tied and we were dominating it when the second pair completely shifted the momentum and got scored on.
Yeah I think sheltering players who were a liability would have squeezed out one out of the three winnable games, maybe even two or all three for all we know. That's not to say it accounts for the other issue (that his systems were figured out by Bednar and he had no counter in terms of an effective breakout plan) but it sure as #### could have prevented us from dropping FOUR STRAIGHT GAMES.
And yeah, I think a player who was obviously feeling it offensively (5 goals in 5 games) might have been able to help the team squeeze out one or two more goals with expanded icetime. Maybe an extra shift or ten in Frolik's spot - Frolik was one of our worst players in the playoffs and has not had a good playoff since 2013. Again, we just needed to get one or two more wins for it to have been a series.
Peters got thoroughly outcoached, and was generally a headless chicken in the playoffs.
__________________
"May those who accept their fate find happiness. May those who defy it find glory."
Last edited by GranteedEV; 02-06-2020 at 11:32 PM.
Your job includes motivation. Defining the culture that sees them held accountable to each other.
Team needs a coach they respect to set the tone.
Treliving probably has to go because he is likely too political to hire a coach who could get more of the owners’ ears than he is comfortable with.
Promote Conroy to GM and hire Darryl Sutter as head coach now, please.
The players have to be able to self motivate, this isn't the movies where coaches stand up before every game and roll out the motivational speech with a stirring sound track.
I think where Ward is failing is I don't like his breakouts, or line rushes, I'm seeing too much where players are attacking 1 against 3. or going wide and being forced behind the net.
I still think there's a lack of leadership in that locker room, a team coming out trailing and not getting a shot for 12 minutes isn't exactly an indicator of a group of players with a lot of push back.
No thanks to Sutter, I love the guy, he'll always be one of my favorite coaches, but the hardworking grinding team with size that he likes is in the past, and the Flames don't have the personal to play Sutter hockey. I think even Sutter knows that.
This core has had the following coaches
Bob Hartley - Hard a$$ed task manager. Players hated him, turned on him and got him fired.
Glen Gulutzan - Players coach, teaching coach, players turned on him and cost him his job in short order
Bill Peters - Well we know what happened with him, but he was also a hard a$$ed coach that wasn't afraid to call players to account. Even without the racist issues, there were already signs that the players had turned on him.
Ward - Players coach, plays music during practice, players seem like they've turned off their jets.
So to me it doesn't matter what kind of coach you get, this core is a coach killing core no matter who the coach is. There is something rotten in Denmark for a team that's gone through that many coaches in a short time with signs that the players just don't want to play.
Maybe its time to take a flame thrower to the dressing room and do a cultural shake up.
Oh and good luck getting Gallent or Lav's. Coaches aren't stupid, first of all the good coaches will wait for the end of the year so they'll have maximum opportunities. Second of all there's a new expansion team coming. Third any coach that's going to interview with the Flames will look at the Flames history over the last half decade in terms of coaches, and say nah, I've got a guy wanting a set of whitewalls on the other line, I think I'll take that call.
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Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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"fitness level" - ah yes, they were more fit than the other 29 teams. Totally
Roll your eyes then. If you go back in time this was a flames team that was known as being a country club for veteran players the years before and Hartley was credited as installing a real work ethic for the first time in a while.
I already told you that Hartley had aspects of his coaching that were good. Literally in the post you dismissed as "mental gymnastics". But his entire ####ing strategy was to get outshot and score on the counter. It's not a strategy that wins consistently. It doesn't win consistently in the regular season. It doesn't win consistently in the playoffs. It's just a bad strategy long term. That's why Brad Treliving fired him. Brad Treliving explicitely stated that systems were the reason Hartley was let go, when Hartley was let go. I don't know what you're trying to argue.
The team played over their heads in the regular season, exceeded expectations and had the best playoff success they've had since 04 to date.
Yeah. Hartley was the best coach out of the last five coaches we have had (a full decade of coaches). And he was still a coach with mickey mouse systems that don't cut it if you plan on winning it all. The last time we had a genuinely good coach was probably Mike Keenan. And before that Darryl Sutter.
We need a good coach again instead of another dud. A hundred bad coaches are still a hundred bad coaches.
Here were the defense pairs and their ES ice time and their on-ice goals:
Gio-Brodie - 62:13 - 2 GF 1 GA
Hanifin-Hamonic - 77:25 - 1 GF 4 GA
Valimaki-Andersson - 28:12 - 1 GF 0 GA
Fantenberg-Andersson - 19:46 - 1 GF 0 GA
Two of our losses in that series were one goal games. Another, game 5, was tied and we were dominating it when the second pair completely shifted the momentum and got scored on.
Yeah I think sheltering players who were a liability would have squeezed out one out of the three winnable games, maybe even two or all three for all we know. That's not to say it accounts for the other issue (that his systems were figured out by Bednar and he had no counter in terms of an effective breakout plan) but it sure as #### could have prevented us from dropping FOUR STRAIGHT GAMES.
And yeah, I think a player who was obviously feeling it offensively (5 goals in 5 games) might have been able to help the team squeeze out one or two more goals with expanded icetime. Maybe an extra shift or ten in Frolik's spot - Frolik was one of our worst players in the playoffs and has not had a good playoff since 2013. Again, we just needed to get one or two more wins for it to have been a series.
Again, this is all just sour grapes. Captain hindsight is a great leader but doesn't have to make the tough decisions. How about asking our top players to score one or two more goals or not look completely neutered instead of blaming the defense for letting in one or two goals too many.
No coach in their right mind would have taken ice time away from gaudreau, Monahan, lindholm or tkachuk in favor of Bennett in that situation.
Ward references the team identity and that they’re not playing to it right now and how last year they were scoring team and that didn’t work in the playoffs.
...does anyone have a damn clue as to what identity Ward thinks this team has this season?
I don’t know but in a few interviews I’ve seen he has treated the fact that the Flames have been in a lot of 1-goal games this season as a positive that will help come playoff time.
I think that’s the wrong mindset, this team needs the mindset that they’ll run over the other team on the scoreboard each night. They seem to be way too cautious and focused on playing ugly tight-checking hockey, it’s going against their natural instinct to be aggressive all over the ice and allow the skill to show.
Baffled that he said tonight that he didn’t want them to be a scoring team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken
Well Lebrun interviewed him and confirmed as much,
"What he told me Thursday is that he is in no rush. He’s going to use the rest of the year to decompress. He’s enjoying spending time with family, in fact he’s in Vegas this week tying up some loose ends. He says he has not spoken with any teams since his firing. His phone has been quiet that way.""
That was on January 30th, and LeBrun is likely referencing the previous Thursday on January 23rd
Interview on February 2nd:
Gallant says at the start of this video that his goal is to keep coaching, whether it’s sometime this season or next season, and that he is ready go back.
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The players have to be able to self motivate, this isn't the movies where coaches stand up before every game and roll out the motivational speech with a stirring sound track.
I think where Ward is failing is I don't like his breakouts, or line rushes, I'm seeing too much where players are attacking 1 against 3. or going wide and being forced behind the net.
I still think there's a lack of leadership in that locker room, a team coming out trailing and not getting a shot for 12 minutes isn't exactly an indicator of a group of players with a lot of push back.
No thanks to Sutter, I love the guy, he'll always be one of my favorite coaches, but the hardworking grinding team with size that he likes is in the past, and the Flames don't have the personal to play Sutter hockey. I think even Sutter knows that.
This core has had the following coaches
Bob Hartley - Hard a$$ed task manager. Players hated him, turned on him and got him fired.
Glen Gulutzan - Players coach, teaching coach, players turned on him and cost him his job in short order
Bill Peters - Well we know what happened with him, but he was also a hard a$$ed coach that wasn't afraid to call players to account. Even without the racist issues, there were already signs that the players had turned on him.
Ward - Players coach, plays music during practice, players seem like they've turned off their jets.
So to me it doesn't matter what kind of coach you get, this core is a coach killing core no matter who the coach is. There is something rotten in Denmark for a team that's gone through that many coaches in a short time with signs that the players just don't want to play.
Maybe its time to take a flame thrower to the dressing room and do a cultural shake up.
Oh and good luck getting Gallent or Lav's. Coaches aren't stupid, first of all the good coaches will wait for the end of the year so they'll have maximum opportunities. Second of all there's a new expansion team coming. Third any coach that's going to interview with the Flames will look at the Flames history over the last half decade in terms of coaches, and say nah, I've got a guy wanting a set of whitewalls on the other line, I think I'll take that call.
Captain, I appreciate your view, and still think having read and heard quite a few stories about how Sutter worked inside the room, he was able to get teams playing for each other while defending them externally.
Jeez what a illogical caller on OT with Steinberg now. Some guy stating how the Flames this year are the same as the Avs last year. Hence because of how the Avs came together, the Flames will do the same. Giving no reason other than, the Avs weren’t that good at this time of the year around feb, just as the Flames are now. So by that premise the conclusion is obvious, the Flames will do exactly what Colorado did.
