[FT] Loubardias vs Steinberg

[StrykerSteve]

Just listened to it for the first time, that was fantastic radio

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Not sure what you mean there. Bennett has more intangibles than Draisaitl or Reinhart but also will have good stats in the future. What were you trying to get at exactly? Bennett is an intangible dream IMO. He's competitive, gritty, hard working, determined, physical, will lead on the ice with his play. A perfect blend of skill and intangibles.

IMO, Draisaitl is neck and neck with Bennett right now. Dude is legit. Remove the stupid jersey from the equation and it's not hard to see.

Reinhart I agree with but he is finally coming on.

[Stay Golden]

Loubo likes the intangibles of a player while Steinberg relies far too much on stats. He is a stat junkie.
Steinberg was trying to play the hero card throughout the argument even though it was jmo Steinberg that kept prodding away and prolonging the argument.
Personally i like a heated argument so i was ok with both of them going toe to toe.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Not sure what you mean there. Bennett has more intangibles than Draisaitl or Reinhart but also will have good stats in the future. What were you trying to get at exactly? Bennett is an intangible dream IMO. He's competitive, gritty, hard working, determined, physical, will lead on the ice with his play. A perfect blend of skill and intangibles.

Shouldn't those attributes already be reflected in his stats, both regular and and particularly advanced? If he's that much more competitive and hard working, he will win more puck battles, have the puck more often and probably score more because of it (especially at even strength). Power play time is a whole different animal which is why most advanced stats focus on even strength. Compete level isnt really as critical on the power play.

At the end of the day, hockey is about outscoring the other team no matter how you do it. If a hard working, less skilled guy can do it at the same rate as a more talented player he shouldn't get additional bonus points for doing it a certain way. It's all about the end result.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

2013-14 Flames.
Finished 27th Place.
Lots of Character.
No Talent.

Sure. You need skill + character. I don't think anybody questions that.

There are some fans that think you need just skill. And some former Oilers GMs lol

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by dammage79

IMO, Draisaitl is neck and neck with Bennett right now. Dude is legit. Remove the stupid jersey from the equation and it's not hard to see.

Reinhart I agree with but he is finally coming on.

They are all awesome players. All very skilled. Fantastic young players who will be elite NHLers.

I take Bennett out of the 3 to build my team around because he's more gritty, competitive, physical and faster than the other two. You can go back and look before the draft and I was saying the same thing. I had Bennett behind Ekblad as #2 on my rankings heading into that draft.

Some teams will just take the most purely skilled guy. I don't think the Flames are one of those teams, I think they love the blend of skill and character, intangibles, physicality, etc.

[MoreDrank]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Lou loves numbers. Stats don't push his buttons. What pushes his buttons are guys that crunch a bunch of numbers and then pretend to be experts on every player in the league and their value on the ice. Rob Vollman of hockey abstract for example who I'd imagine doesn't have time to watch a lot of all these players he presents his "expert" opinion on during weekly segments on the Fan. Or guys like Kent Wilson who draw bizarre conclusions from stats that watching the players yourself don't support. What annoys Lou is people who don't take into account things that the stats don't show, leadership, character, effort level, etc. Scouts and GMs take those into consideration for sure. What annoys Lou is fans who look at a hero graph of a player on a team they never watch that then go and trash talk about that player as if they know that player's game inside and out.

Those things are important. I don't think anybody is debating that. But those things are inputs. Any sports' number measures the results—the outputs.

Spoiler!

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

They are all awesome players. All very skilled. Fantastic young players who will be elite NHLers.

I take Bennett out of the 3 to build my team around because he's more gritty, competitive, physical and faster than the other two. You can go back and look before the draft and I was saying the same thing. I had Bennett behind Ekblad as #2 on my rankings heading into that draft.

Some teams will just take the most purely skilled guy. I don't think the Flames are one of those teams, I think they love the blend of skill and character, intangibles, physicality, etc.

I too had Bennett right there. Draisaitl ahead of Reinhart though. I'm not sure how you can say that those very same intangibles are not equally instilled in Leon though. Has better size. Less speed though, that is apparent. I still take Bennett every dy of the week but Leon Draisaitl wounldn't have lessened the Flames if things went differently.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by dammage79

I too had Bennett right there. Draisaitl ahead of Reinhart though. I'm not sure how you can say that those very same intangibles are not equally instilled in Leon though. Has better size. Less speed though, that is apparent. I still take Bennett every dy of the week but Leon Draisaitl wounldn't have lessened the Flames if things went differently.

Draisaitl's advantage over the other two, to this point, is his physical maturity.

Guys develop at different ages. Draisaitl was a man at 18. Neither Bennett nor Reinhart is a man yet at 20.

Once they mature physically, the advantage that Draisaitl currently holds will vanish, and it will all come down to skill and talent.

At that point, I think Bennett will be the clear winner. Whether Reinhart passes Draisaitl or not remains to be seen.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Kinda feel bad for Russell at this point. He's an honest guy playing the best he can and he is easily the biggest whipping boy on the team. He's not the best player obviously, but the amount of bandwidth that is dedicated to him on this site is staggering. Totally out of line with his contributions vs other players. Hopefully he moves on to a calmer market where he can fly under the radar a bit more.

I see many posters stating that they like Russell and thus I wouldn't say he's a whipping boy. I think he gets a lot of airtime because his play and the "eye test vs stats" creates a polarizing debate.

For whipping boys this season, see Hiller, Jones and Colborne.

[GranteedEV]

I think he gets a lot of airtime because he's a pending UFA in a cap crunch year. If he were signed for 2.2M until 2020 we'd all be happy with him.

[calgaryblood]

Loubardias is a big baby and I think the guys at fan960 are getting sick of his constant whining. Grow a thicker skin Loubardias or find another business. He is extremely knowledgeable when it comes to hockey but man is he ever sensitive.

[MarkGio]

Does anyone know their heights and weights?

Steinberg seemed calm despite Lou's anger. I'd put my money on him if they were to throw down. Unless it turns out Steinberg is 5'7" 165lbs and Lou is 6'4" 225lbs

[calgaryblood]

Haha I posted before reading the thread and found it interesting that I'm not the only one who thinks Loubardias is a giant baby who is overly sensitive. I thought I was the only one who notices how much of a whiner he is. Even before this incident he always is complaining or seems mad about something. It's too bad because like I said he is an extremely knowledgable hockey guy.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Does anyone know their heights and weights?

Steinberg seemed calm despite Lou's anger. I'd put my money on him if they were to throw down. Unless it turns out Steinberg is 5'7" 165lbs and Lou is 6'4" 225lbs

Loubardias is a small guy. I've met him before and he must be 5'5 120 pounds at most.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Loubardias is a small guy. I've met him before and he must be 5'5 120 pounds at most.

Lou's has lost a ton of weight over the years. Back when he did sports on TV in Saskatoon he was some kinda chunky.

[VladtheImpaler]

Isn't Steinberg a weightlifting fiend? He'd snap Lou like a twig.

[VANFLAMESFAN]

As a radio guy, I found it entertaining for sure.

Was is a great hockey debate with informed opinions that were presented in an intellegent manner? No. It was a spur of the moment debate and turned heated with Peter's tone and Pat wasn't going to back down. It was entertainment, radio is entertainment. People are talking about it. Good or bad, doesn't matter, people are talking about it.

[Bingo]

The best thing about the argument is it illustrates the polarity and the pissiness in this debate and it's come from both sides.

I truly believe the best of the best analytics guys is going to be the one that combines the two worlds and pushes things forward. Finds way to discount certain stats for certain reasons or at least provide context so everything isn't just a sort on a spreadsheet.

I put the stats up and wanted it to be challenged and GrantEV (sorry may have misspelled that) provided some interesting context to it. That's healthy and interesting.

[calgaryblood]

Loubardias was whining again today because someone on SN said some GM is going to be real stupid giving up a first round pick for Russel. Whined and said GMs know more about the game than any one of us....

Is Russel the son of Loubardias? One would think so with how much he defends him even it makes him sound like a big baby throwing a tantrum.