Smid thinks he is ready. UPD: Hopes to be cleared for mid October

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by cannon7

Wish Engelland wasn't the best option we had for Brodie. Engelland should be our #7, albeit a ridiculously overpaid one.

Still barking up that tree eh? It took Engelland a while to settle in, but he is a capable defenseman. Capable D-men get paid. Not only that, but he was UFA signing, and he was willing to play anywhere while the club developed it's prospects.

That was the price to get him, and he has earned his dough.

[FBI]

Yeah I'm still not sold on Engelland as #6 even though he stepped it up last year.. I think his partner was always carrying him at that time. I mean he excels at chipping it off the boards, icing the puck, and physical play. meh

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by FBI

Yeah I'm still not sold on Engelland as #6 even though he stepped it up last year.. I think his partner was always carrying him at that time. I mean he excels at chipping it off the boards, icing the puck, and physical play. meh

Yeah pretty much this. He'll do, but we could do better. I'll be surprised if he finishes his contract with us. He performed admirably when called upon but that was mostly Brodie. He's such a stud, he could have a cinder block for a partner and not look half bad.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

that was mostly Brodie. He's such a stud, he could have basically had a cinder block for a partner and not look half bad.

Ahem.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Ahem.

Ya but that cinder block stepped up for Mark Giordano. With out him finding that extra gear Flames may have not made it into the platoffs at all.

[Caged Great]

I have a sneaking feeling that Kenney Morrison might steal the #4 spot in training camp

Gio-Hamilton
Brodie-Morrison
Russell-Wideman
Engelland

Might make the most sense. Morrison looked like a right handed version of Brodie last season in Adirondack and was the best guy at the development camp. That would also allow each pairing to have a left shooter and a right shooter, which would be perfect. If there are games where you need more physicality you could always throw Engelland in there instead of Morrison.

I think that if Smid is healthy that he might be the odd man out. Between Smid and Engelland, they both have the same role on the team but I would rather have Engelland due to him not being injury prone. The Flames would likely have to eat some $ to deal him, but some team could use a decent #6 for 2 seasons.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

I have a sneaking feeling that Kenney Morrison might steal the #4 spot in training camp

Gio-Hamilton
Brodie-Morrison
Russell-Wideman
Engelland

Might make the most sense. Morrison looked like a right handed version of Brodie last season in Adirondack and was the best guy at the development camp.

Okay... so how about

Brodie-Hamilton
Giordano-Morrison
Russell-Wideman
Smid

Not saying Gio is a 2nd pairing Dman, just that the rookie can learn while playing with him. Plus Brodie continues his natural progression into Duncan Keith 2.0

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Still barking up that tree eh? It took Engelland a while to settle in, but he is a capable defenseman. Capable D-men get paid. Not only that, but he was UFA signing, and he was willing to play anywhere while the club developed it's prospects.

That was the price to get him, and he has earned his dough.

The guy was a healthy scratch for the Penguins before getting an absurd contract. Remember it was reported he got 2.9M and everyone thought that was total over the three years and not per year?

At the time the Flames were below the cap floor, they appeared to need some sandpaper for the young players, and apparently Edmonton wanted him as well. The stars really aligned for the perfect opportunity for Engelland. I don't think this was a case of "capable d-men getting paid" and I don't think he's earned his dough either. It's nothing against Engelland as a person as I can't fault him for signing a 9M contract.

Many of the posters who rationalized the signing looked at it as a way to stay above the cap-floor while making assets like Wideman and Glencross available. No one had imagined that the Flames would be dealing close to the cap ceiling while Engelland was still signed, and I think that extends to not just posters but management. But a Norris-quality year from Giordano, the incredible exceeding of expectations by the top line of Hudler, Monahan and Gaudreau, and then getting a 6M dollar roster player for some picks changed the landscape of the team extremely quickly.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Okay... so how about

Brodie-Hamilton
Giordano-Morrison
Russell-Wideman
Smid

Not saying Gio is a 2nd pairing Dman, just that the rookie can learn while playing with him.

I'd try both and see which works better. Couldn't hurt. Either way, each of the top 2 pairings will have #1 D-men on it. I'd also try Spoon there instead of Morrison because he might have had a good offseason as well. Won't know until training camp starts.

Another eventuality if both Spoon and Morrison are ready and Kulak/Culkin are showing they aren't far behind is that Russell/Wideman may end up getting dealt. Having 14 million tied up in your 5-6-7-8 guys is too much. At least all of those contracts are up after next season.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

I'd try both and see which works better. Couldn't hurt. Either way, each of the top 2 pairings will have #1 D-men on it. I'd also try Spoon there instead of Morrison because he might have had a good offseason as well. Won't know until training camp starts.

Another eventuality if both Spoon and Morrison are ready and Kulak/Culkin are showing they aren't far behind is that Russell/Wideman may end up getting dealt. Having 14 million tied up in your 5-6-7-8 guys is too much. At least all of those contracts are up after next season.

Yes, clearing cap is prudent. Last year the Hawks won the cup playing Keith, Hjalmarsson, and Seabrook heavily and while Oduya was a bit of a contributor he wasn't exactly great and their bottom pairing was just being held together with paperclips and gum between Timonen, Cuminsky, Van Riemsdyk, and Rundblad.

I'm just not sure any of Spoon, or Smid, or Engelland fit Hartley's "vision". He said on that radio interview that "we don't believe in defensive defensemen" which kind of revealed that he probably wants a 60 minute onslaught of crazy pinches and unexpected stretch passes. Culkin/Kulak might develop a leg up on Spoon for that reason.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Yes, clearing cap is prudent. Last year the Hawks won the cup playing Keith, Hjalmarsson, and Seabrook heavily and while Oduya was a bit of a contributor he wasn't exactly great and their bottom pairing was just being held together with paperclips and gum between Timonen, Cuminsky, Van Riemsdyk, and Rundblad.

I'm just not sure any of Spoon, or Smid, or Engelland fit Hartley's "vision". He said on that radio interview that "we don't believe in defensive defensemen" which kind of revealed that he probably wants a 60 minute onslaught of crazy pinches and unexpected stretch passes. Culkin/Kulak might develop a leg up on Spoon for that reason.

And I don't blame him. The Flames have the horses up front in the top 9 to be able to attack in wave after wave after wave. That has the potential to really beat down the opposition. Turn over the puck and then it's an odd man rush back the other way. If Monahan, Bennett, Backlund and Stajan can win more than half the draws, that would help correct the Corsi problem very quickly.

I could see Kulak and Culkin leapfrogging Spoon as well and Andersson/Kylington nipping at their heels in a year or two. It's nice to have so much skill and depth at every position.

[heep223]

Every time the subject of Engelland comes up, I want to post that pic of him punching 2 Canucks in the face at the same time. Guy has earned every penny in my books.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

The guy was a healthy scratch for the Penguins before getting an absurd contract. Remember it was reported he got 2.9M and everyone thought that was total over the three years and not per year?

At the time the Flames were below the cap floor, they appeared to need some sandpaper for the young players, and apparently Edmonton wanted him as well. The stars really aligned for the perfect opportunity for Engelland. I don't think this was a case of "capable d-men getting paid" and I don't think he's earned his dough either. It's nothing against Engelland as a person as I can't fault him for signing a 9M contract.

Many of the posters who rationalized the signing looked at it as a way to stay above the cap-floor while making assets like Wideman and Glencross available. No one had imagined that the Flames would be dealing close to the cap ceiling while Engelland was still signed, and I think that extends to not just posters but management. But a Norris-quality year from Giordano, the incredible exceeding of expectations by the top line of Hudler, Monahan and Gaudreau, and then getting a 6M dollar roster player for some picks changed the landscape of the team extremely quickly.

I pretty much agree with you here. Engelland has been a useful player to be sure. He stepped up big time when Gio went down and I loved it when he fought 2 Canucks but he is still wildly overpaid as a #6/7 defenseman. Some have speculated he got the big money to help the team get to the cap floor but if so that was a bad decision. You don't hand out a 3 year contract to do that.
The guy may have intangibles that have contributed to the culture shift and if so that is hard to put a price on.
But sometimes you just have to look at the bottom line. The Flames are a cap team now and are coming off a 16th place season. They look to be on the upswing but BT will have to start shedding bad contracts (some he inherited and some he signed) in order to continue to improve and sign players that need to be signed.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

I think that if Smid is healthy that he might be the odd man out. Between Smid and Engelland, they both have the same role on the team but I would rather have Engelland due to him not being injury prone. The Flames would likely have to eat some $ to deal him, but some team could use a decent #6 for 2 seasons.

Not likely at all, imo. It would be more than retaining salary, we would likely have to take a bad contract back, which with our roster and cap situation would render trading him pretty useless.

I don't see any teams looking at a player who was just about out of the league due to concussion problems taking a risk on a $3/mil2yr 6/7th defenseman unless there is equal or even more "problem" salary going the other way.

[SportsJunky]

Originally Posted by heep223

Every time the subject of Engelland comes up, I want to post that pic of him punching 2 Canucks in the face at the same time. Guy has earned every penny in my books.

I was just thinking the same thing before I read your post. That moment in the playoffs erased all the cringey moments I had watching him play during the season. I think they need a guy like Engelland for the time being.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

I could see Kulak and Culkin leapfrogging Spoon as well and Andersson/Kylington nipping at their heels in a year or two. It's nice to have so much skill and depth at every position.

It's crazy to think how exciting this conversation is - yet we forgot to mention Brandon Hickey, who is probably a better prospect than Morrison, Kulak, or Culkin

Oh, and Rafikov, who's playing KHL now as a 20 year old.

Smid, Engelland, Russell, and Wideman have to be looking at the rear-view mirror with their foot on the gas pedal.

[Locke]

As soon as Engelland got bigger minutes his play did a 180, it was night and day. Even he said so in an interview, he said its tough to get any kind of consistency going with only 10-12 minutes a night.

Sure, he had Brodie as a partner and that has to be taken into account, but he is a capable defenceman that we'll need if we want to make any noise in the playoffs.

[Gaskal]

I understand that Engelland stepped up big after Gio's injury and that he was a serviceable top 4 defenceman for that period when paired with Brodie, but regardless... if Nakladal, Wilson, or Morrison look better in training camp, then Hartley gives them the spot. Of course he could have an impressive showing and play up to the level of his contract, but that's Deryk's best-case scenario. And I believe it's quite likely that one of those challengers steps up and takes his spot.

With Smid probably still being on the shelf due to injury, I'm thinking the final D-pairings shake up as:

Gio - Hamilton
Brodie - Wideman
Russell - Wilson (Anyone a Seahawks fan?)
Engelland

[Vulcan]

Gio - Hamilton
Brodie - Wideman
Russell - Wilson (Anyone a Seahawks fan?)
Engelland

When playing the ducks, kings
Giordano - Hamilton
Brodie - Engelland
Wilson - Wideman
Russell

(and yeah)

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by FBI

Yeah I'm still not sold on Engelland as #6 even though he stepped it up last year.. I think his partner was always carrying him at that time. I mean he excels at chipping it off the boards, icing the puck, and physical play. meh

Wrong dude, Engellands physical presence is huge against the bigger western teams. He's the only one that can slow down Perry, Getzlaf etc.

Yes Engelland has holes in his game but he's the only competent player that can weather the storm against the 220+ pounders. Bollig can as well but he has marginal contributions whereas Engelland can keep his head above water against any line. Maybe he won't be sending the breakout passes and lighting up the scoreboard but he'll be stripping Getzlaf of the puck in the corner for us and clearing the crease in the playoffs.

You think we'd have made the playoffs had Wotherspoon been in Engellands spot? I doubt it highly, he stepped up huge when we needed it. Physical play meh? Physical play is what drives the playoffs.