Gender neutrality and political correctness discussion

[CroFlames]

I didn't think someone would start a thread when the Mod started deleting posts in the hockey forum.

Why is it OK to make fun of another human being at all? I.e.: The Sedin's physical appearance is X, Y or Z, they play hockey like a bunch of X, Y or Z's. That is just as bad as a sexist comment since you are directly attacking and singling out another specific human being. Even if you imply the "suck" at hockey, or are "old" that is just as offensive.

Seems like everyone here agrees its OK to make fun of them, but not call them Sisters because it would be sexist. But why? Making fun of their appearance is just as offensive to the Sedins, isn't it?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I didn't think someone would start a thread when the Mod started deleting posts in the hockey forum.

Why is it OK to make fun of another human being at all? I.e.: The Sedin's physical appearance is X, Y or Z, they play hockey like a bunch of X, Y or Z's. That is just as bad as a sexist comment since you are directly attacking and singling out another specific human being. Even if you imply the "suck" at hockey, or are "old" that is just as offensive.

Seems like everyone here agrees its OK to make fun of them, but not call them Sisters because it would be sexist. But why? Making fun of their appearance is just as offensive to the Sedins, isn't it?

The difference is one is disparaging to the individual and the other is disparaging to an entire group. I do think it's better to keep the smack talk about hockey rather than getting into personal attacks, but whatever, it's not like they're going to see it.

[Ducay]

You must be kind to everyone, never point out flaws or make mean comments so the world will be perfect rainbows and sunshine.

This thread basically summarises whats wrong with the PC world today. Its hockey, its a violent sport, get over it. The target demographic for this forum is not young children looking for teletubbies, why does it need to become some PC junkyard?

[The Ditch]

Originally Posted by Ducay

You must be kind to everyone, never point out flaws or make mean comments so the world will be perfect rainbows and sunshine.

This thread basically summarises whats wrong with the PC world today. Its hockey, its a violent sport, get over it. The target demographic for this forum is not young children looking for teletubbies, why does it need to become some PC junkyard?

I actually think that this thread more or less showcases why the other provinces call us rednecks and hicks because of comments like yours.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by rubecube

The difference is one is disparaging to the individual and the other is disparaging to an entire group. I do think it's better to keep the smack talk about hockey rather than getting into personal attacks, but whatever, it's not like they're going to see it.

The point is, where do you stop? At some point you have to admit that making fun of an individual is just as bad as making fun of a group. Why is making fun of a group worse than making fun of an individual? Who made that rule...

Originally Posted by The Ditch

I actually think that this thread more or less showcases why the other provinces call us rednecks and hicks because of comments like yours.

Other provinces call Alberta rednecks & hicks because there are a lot of farmers in Alberta, trust me. You think people in other provinces are more polite than in AB? I think your comment generalizing Albertans is politically incorrect and may offend many. If you want to maintain your stance of being politically correct, you should retract your statement.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Yup, you're right. Mea culpa. I absolutely should not have used that term to describe Jim Benning. Incompetent was the much better word.

Now that that's done, want to set aside the ad hominem and engage the substance?


There's no grey area here. Winning the hearts and minds of people who are being sexist? If they can't recognize their own error here and say, "yes, I can see why I'm wrong there, in future I'll make an effort to refrain from talking that way", it reflects poorly on them and they should receive a proportionate amount of shaming.

It wasn't an ad hominem attack, it was at the very heart of the subject being discussed. I don't know you from Adam, but I couldn't help but notice the glaring inconsistency in your stance especially in light of your lecturing tone that defines most of your posts. Hope you didn't take it as a character assassination, it was more of a wtf moment for me than anything.

And yes, winning the hearts and minds of racists and sexists should be the goal I would assume. To change opinions and beliefs over time to create a better, more inclusive world would mean that has happened to some degree. However, I believe some people don't care about that as much as they do shaming people and reveling in the feeling of being superior. Shaming does have it's place (neo Nazis for instance should be shamed) but I think some people are more interested in shaming because it makes them feel self righteous more than they are doing it to enact actual social change.

Even if you choose not to believe it, there is a grey area in this debate. That's where a great majority of people reside that offend you so. They are the people, as time goes by and society continues to evolve, who will shift their and their children's views over the course of their lives. Many of them will end up helping the cause of inclusion if given enough time, even if don't believe it now. Lots of them are regular people that you see every day like family members, neighbors, teachers, lawyers, poor people, rich people, people from all walks of life.

They aren't all scumbags who need a 'proportionate amount of shaming' just because their attitudes and beliefs haven't quite caught up with society's progress as a whole. Take me for instance, ten years ago I would've dropped words like ###### and fag without blinking an eye, now I would never, ever use those words. Hell, I was against gay marriage at the time as well, now I am 100% for it. Was I shamed into changing my ways? No. I realized the world was changing and I needed to change with it. My primary influences were some progressive family and friends that I have that altered my view through time and thoughtful discussion. Perhaps being shamed random internet people like you would've worked just as well, but I doubt it.

My point was I don't think anonymous internet message boards are the place that will facilitate that change. Sure they can have rules in place to uphold their own standards but it's likely not changing anyone's minds because many people would rather spew vitriol in a internet debate than actually discuss the subject itself when it comes up as a topic. Not labeling everyone as doing that but it is an inevitability when you have a debate where anyone in the world can chime in at any point, each with their own motivations for doing so.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

The point is, where do you stop? At some point you have to admit that making fun of an individual is just as bad as making fun of a group. Why is making fun of a group worse than making fun of an individual? Who made that rule...

You honestly can't figure out why racism and sexism are more harmful than individual insults?

[craigwd]

Originally Posted by Ducay

You must be kind to everyone, never point out flaws or make mean comments so the world will be perfect rainbows and sunshine.

This thread basically summarises whats wrong with the PC world today. Its hockey, its a violent sport, get over it. The target demographic for this forum is not young children looking for teletubbies, why does it need to become some PC junkyard?

This would actually make the world a better place.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

It wasn't an ad hominem attack, it was at the very heart of the subject being discussed.

Of course it was. Rather than engaging me on the substance of this discussion, you took another example of my conduct, pointed to it, and said, "in light of this prior statement on an analogous subject, your view on the subject presently under discussion are called into question". That is the definition of an ad hominem attack - you've attempted to cast aspersions on my views by attacking me personally.

Your criticism was right as to my previous post, but that has absolutely no bearing on the substance of what I've posted in this thread, which is either right or wrong on its own merits.

However, I believe some people don't care about that as much as they do shaming people and reveling in the feeling of being superior. Shaming does have it's place (neo Nazis for instance should be shamed) but I think some people are more interested in shaming because it makes them feel self righteous more than they are doing it to enact actual social change.

I agree; we were discussing this in the context of social justice warriors on the internet. I don't think anyone should be shamed in the extreme - I don't think making a sexist joke in the office should lose you your job or cause you to be effectively tarred and feathered via twitter and labelled as a mysoginist. But I do think people should effectively communicate to you that that's something you should be embarrassed about and hopefully you will recognize that and not do it anymore.

Even if you choose not to believe it, there is a grey area in this debate. That's where a great majority of people reside that offend you so. They are the people, as time goes by and society continues to evolve, who will shift their and their children's views over the course of their lives. Many of them will end up helping the cause of inclusion if given enough time, even if don't believe it now. Lots of them are regular people that you see every day like family members, neighbors, teachers, lawyers, poor people, rich people, people from all walks of life.

I hope they do end up doing so, but that doesn't mean they currently reside in a grey area. They reside in the black, and the hope is that a light bulb goes off and they choose to stop being there.

They aren't all scumbags who need a 'proportionate amount of shaming' just because their attitudes and beliefs haven't quite caught up with society's progress as a whole.

As I say, a proportionate amount of shaming - not witch hunting people - is a good response, because it's an effective way to nudge society's progress along. Make it clear, publicly and directly but without hyperbole - that these views are not acceptable.

Hell, I was against gay marriage at the time as well, now I am 100% for it. Was I shamed into changing my ways? No. I realized the world was changing and I needed to change with it.

Well, I mean, good for you, but I hope you don't mean to imply that the world changed and therefore practices that were previously wrong are now acceptable. It was you who was wrong.

My point was I don't think anonymous internet message boards are the place that will facilitate that change.

Never said they were. I think it has to happen everywhere, INCLUDING internet message boards. Unfortunately, outside of anonymous settings, people often hesitate to call people out on their ignorance face to face out of politeness and fear of confrontation. So, maybe it just starts on the internet, and eventually translates into everyday interaction.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by craigwd

This would actually make the world a better place.

It's a totally bizarre argument. "Look at all these damn liberals, trying to reduce harm and increase kindness and empathy. What a bunch of ding dongs."

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Ducay

You must be kind to everyone, never point out flaws or make mean comments so the world will be perfect rainbows and sunshine.

This thread basically summarises whats wrong with the PC world today. Its hockey, its a violent sport, get over it. The target demographic for this forum is not young children looking for teletubbies, why does it need to become some PC junkyard?

Let's explore this more.
Tell me, exactly what IS wrong with the PC world today.
The world is more inclusive and less discriminatory to people of various gender, race, sexual orientation, etc. There is a drive for equality both in terms of how people are treated, and things like how they are paid. There is less tolerance for bullying. There is less tolerance for jokes grounded in hate.

And the price we pay for all that? We give up the ability to use some insults that weren't exactly knee-slappers anyways.

So what's wrong with that? I think that sounds pretty good to me.

The neat thing is the world is moving in this direction. It is happening. So you can either be a part of it, or be that weird guy in the corner who tells uncomfortable jokes, and whose viewpoints become more and more embarrassing as time passes.

Because society isn't going to wait for you to catch up.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by polak

Women are worse at most sports than men.

Hockey is one of those sports.

Children are worse at sports than men.

Why should we feel guilty for saying "Sedin Sisters" but not feel bad saying "Gaudreau plays like a child" or something to that effect? You just insulted every child too with that logic.

Or we could just accept the fact that when the goal is to insult another person, you sort of have to accept that you will probably be insulting some other group in some degree unless you're okay with all of your insults basically being "Ha! Sedins are poor NHL players!"

The overwhelming majority of the top sprinters and marathon runners in the world are black. By your logic, it would be totally acceptable to insult an athlete by saying, "Haha, he runs like a white guy!" You wouldn't have a problem with that insult or think that it was racist because it's just playing on the fact that black people tend to run faster than white people, right?

No, of course you would think that comment is racist because it absolutely is, just like calling the Sedins "sisters" is totally sexist. By all means mock them, but be more creative with your trash talk than using lame gendered insults.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Bmuzyka

If race didn't exist anymore, then I suppose that Doctors wouldn't care about ethnicity at all when trying to diagnose certain rare diseases which are much more prone to people whose heritage comes from different parts of the world.

http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/handbook/inheritance/ethnicgroup

You're being railroaded a bit because you are using imprecise language, but your point still stands, people of different ethnicities are different and are more predisposed to certain physical and/or genetic traits as a result of their "evolution".

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

The point is, where do you stop? At some point you have to admit that making fun of an individual is just as bad as making fun of a group. Why is making fun of a group worse than making fun of an individual? Who made that rule...

Yes! Above all else we must retain our right to make fun of people. Because you know - it's just so damn fun.

[craigwd]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Yes! Above all else we must retain our right to make fun of people. Because you know - it's just so damn fun.

Exactly! And it makes me feel better than someone else.

- this is how school yard bullies justify what they do.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Yes! Above all else we must retain our right to make fun of people. Because you know - it's just so damn fun.

I'm saying you shouldn't make fun of individuals or groups.

[Hanna Sniper]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Let's explore this more.
Tell me, exactly what IS wrong with the PC world today.

There's is nothing wrong with the PC world of today as we can't look at it from an outsiders point of view, but we'll sure have a different perspective about in when we look at it in retrospect. I have zero doubt our PC world of today will be looked apron by the future generation as we look back at out previous generation

What I do find wrong is the hypocrites that hide behind the PC shield when it serves them and brushes off what they think doesn't apply because they don't give it importance to themselves. (Please, I'm not referring to anyone or any post in this thread and calling them a hypocrite)

I'm all for change and pulling together as a society to try and force change in what we see as a positive direction. But those that say and do not do, that expect others to change while not allowing change within themselves

With each generation one would hope that something is left to die.. unfortunately some things don't die soon enough. But I will always appose the PC world, or at least the righteous solders who are just as guilty as those that they prosecute... doing the right thing for the wrong reasons, it's great when the right and correct path is taken but when we do it for the wrong reasons are we any better off (not saying we should try, just do it for the right reasons)

[rubecube]

^^ Dude, you really need to proofread that. I'm not trying to be a dick, but it's pretty incoherent.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I agree; we were discussing this in the context of social justice warriors on the internet.

Sometimes I wonder why "social justice warriors" is treated as such a pejorative.

If you were going to be a warrior (or wizard, or druid, or paladin, etc.) about anything . . . wouldn't social justice be a damn good cause to support?

[Hanna Sniper]

Originally Posted by rubecube

^^ Dude, you really need to proofread that. I'm not trying to be a dick, but it's pretty incoherent.

There's a reason for that, any one post isn't worth taking 20 minutes to make it acceptable to those that do try and be a dick. Everyone is fighting there own different battles, unfortunately one of mind gets called out far too often... most of my post I need to edit multiple times, some times i leave it and just hope other just get the idea of what I'm trying to say and others will think less of me for not... either or, it's either post or don't post... fix what I can but don't fret when some do try to be a dick