Reto Berra vs. Karri Ramo

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

They both suck?

I guess if thats what you gleaned from that info...

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

To add to this

In 10 games Ramo has given up 18 Ev Str goals

Berra in 11 games has given up 31.

Ramo has played against: WAS, LA, SJ, DAL, WAS, COL, TOR, DAL, ANA, LA

Berra has played against: CHI, MIN, STL, SJ, DAL, EDM, WIN, CLB, FLR, CHI, ANA

Ramo has played against 1/10 non-playoff teams, Berra 4/11.

So tell me, at this point, who has proven they are the better goalie?

Did you include injuries to our top players in your analysis? That will have an effect on how well the team plays in front of it's goaltender.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by Dion

Did you include injuries to our top players in your analysis? That will have an effect on how well the team plays in front of it's goaltender.

I hardly see how you would want to add an unknown and unmeasurable variable to this equation.

The Flames are far more injured now in this Ramo win than any lineup iced in most of the Berra games.

In the end you can use whatever stat you want, Ramo is a better goalie. He also passes the eye test. Berra, while amusing to watch in net at times, is not an NHL goalie at this point.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

I guess if thats what you gleaned from that info...

With goalies, by in large, stats do not matter. This is especially true with rebuilding teams. In a case like this, you need to rely on your eyes and make a determination from there.

From the early part of the year with Mac and Ramo, they were both terrible. Like this is not sustainable to have goaltending this bad terrible. Berra came in and was a lot more stable for the first 7 or 8 games. Yes he had difficulties and there, but for the most part he looked better.

Ramo did look very good tonight and I would give him the next game or two to see if it was a good game or if he's improved. He still had some rough edges even tonight, but did also make some great saves. Berra could use some time off as he's not likely used to playing this much against these types of players. However, unless Ramo plays as good next game, I'd still give Berra the starting position because he has a more stable game to him, even if he has had struggles with his positioning.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

With goalies, by in large, stats do not matter. This is especially true with rebuilding teams. In a case like this, you need to rely on your eyes and make a determination from there.

From the early part of the year with Mac and Ramo, they were both terrible. Like this is not sustainable to have goaltending this bad terrible. Berra came in and was a lot more stable for the first 7 or 8 games. Yes he had difficulties in there, but for the most part he looked better.

Ramo did look very good tonight and I would give him the next game or two to see if it was a good game or if he's improved. He still had some rough edges even tonight, but did also make some great saves. Berra could use some time off as he's not likely used to playing this much against these types of players. However, unless Ramo plays as good next game, I'd still give Berra the starting position because he has a more stable game to him, even if he has had struggles with his positioning.

Guess we will have to disagree, because Berra looks like a cluster#### in the net to me.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

I hardly see how you would want to add an unknown and unmeasurable variable to this equation.

The Flames are far more injured now in this Ramo win than any lineup iced in most of the Berra games.

In the end you can use whatever stat you want, Ramo is a better goalie. He also passes the eye test. Berra, while amusing to watch in net at times, is not an NHL goalie at this point.

Take Crawford from Chicago and put him on the Flames and i'm willing to bet that his GAA goes way up. The play of the team in front of you will have an effect on your play and the quality of shots you face. Good teams limit turnovers and giveaways making a goaltenders job easier. The Flames on the other hand make the job of a goaltender much more difficult.

Berra does have work to do on his game but I still think by seasons end he will be the starter. I think he has more raw talent than Ramo. Time will tell.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

Guess we will have to disagree, because Berra looks like a cluster#### in the net to me.

At times, I agree. However, there are flashes of higher end skill that are apparent as well. Ramo hasn't had flashes of anything other than looking like a poor man's Vesa Toskala, tonight being the exception.

If Berra figures out some consistency in his game and the flashes of higher end skill become more regular, then you'll have a decent starter for a few years. If not, then he'll be another goalie that we used to know.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Dion

Take Crawford from Chicago and put him on the Flames and i'm willing to bet that his GAA goes way up. The play of the team in front of you will have an effect on your play and the quality of shots you face. Good teams limit turnovers and giveaways making a goaltenders job easier. The Flames on the other hand make the job of a goaltender much more difficult.

Berra does have work to do on his game but I still think by seasons end he will be the starter. I think he has more raw talent than Ramo. Time will tell.

This is exactly why goalie stats are extremely subjective. I remember a couple years ago Kipper playing his best hockey since 06, and yet his stats were almost bad as the year before.

Our defense corp is the worst in the league by far without having Gio and Wideman. There is only so much a goalie can do with that.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

Guess we will have to disagree, because Berra looks like a cluster#### in the net to me.

Berra is having trouble adjusting to the speed of the game. He gets caught moving too much and makes some of his saves look harder than they really are.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

This is exactly why goalie stats are extremely subjective. I remember a couple years ago Kipper playing his best hockey since 06, and yet his stats were almost bad as the year before.

Our defense corp is the worst in the league by far without having Gio and Wideman. There is only so much a goalie can do with that.

Which is why using EV Str SV% is so useful. Because the years you are talking about showed Kipper was still quite good based on that metric.

GAA is the worst stat for goalies, almost as terrible as +/- for skaters.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

At times, I agree. However, there are flashes of higher end skill that are apparent as well. Ramo hasn't had flashes of anything other than looking like a poor man's Vesa Toskala, tonight being the exception.

If Berra figures out some consistency in his game and the flashes of higher end skill become more regular, then you'll have a decent starter for a few years. If not, then he'll be another goalie that we used to know.

The game in Chicago is a perfect example of what Berra can do when he's on his game.

[djsFlames]

This one definitely goes as a tally under Ramo, but he did only face 22 shots, which isn't much compared to most nights Berra has been in. Team played some solid defense in front of him. I'd like to see how he handles a few games in a row though, too bad it sounds like we won't get to see that.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by Dion

The game in Chicago is a perfect example of what Berra can do when he's on his game.

The game in Chicago was a perfect example of the Flames keeping every shot from Chi away from the middle of the ice (I am assuming you are talking about his first win). They had 5 scoring chances from the middle of the ice.

Regardless of the shot total Berra had a relatively easy night that night.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

The game in Chicago was a perfect example of the Flames keeping every shot from Chi away from the middle of the ice (I am assuming you are talking about his first win). They had 5 scoring chances from the middle of the ice.

Regardless of the shot total Berra had a relatively easy night that night.

No point arguing this any further as your mind seems to be made made up as to who is better.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

Which is why using EV Str SV% is so useful. Because the years you are talking about showed Kipper was still quite good based on that metric.

GAA is the worst stat for goalies, almost as terrible as +/- for skaters.

Even the best goalie stats are not perfect. EV Str SV% is useful to an extent, but when dealing with goalie prospects like Ramo and Berra it's more about feel and their individual skills (Glove/Blocker/Rebounds etc.) than the actual results. In each individual skill, Berra is the better goalie. The only area that he's terrible at right now is his positioning and his adjusting to the speed of the shots.

In the broadcast tonight they mentioned how in the euro leagues that they don't take shots from near the goal line. Several of the bad goals he's let in were shots like that. That is just a matter of repetition of facing those types of shots in order to adjust.

Each of Berra's problems are the easier ones for a goalie to fix, it just takes time. What you can't adjust for is not having higher end talent.

[stemit14]

I find Berra to have a lot of natural skill but his style is so erratic that it's hard to know if he could ever settle his game down. I mean, look at how many pad stacks he does? I think he did 4 in a single game last week. Most NHL starters might do 4 pad stacks like that in a month... He did 4 in a game!

I really think Gillies is a future star goalie in the making both the current flames goalies are just keeping the net warm for him.

[TjRhythmic]

Originally Posted by stemit14

I find Berra to have a lot of natural skill but his style is so erratic that it's hard to know if he could ever settle his game down. I mean, look at how many pad stacks he does? I think he did 4 in a single game last week. Most NHL starters might do 4 pad stacks like that in a month... He did 4 in a game!

I really think Gillies is a future star goalie in the making both the current flames goalies are just keeping the net warm for him.

Berra is a big goalie who I find, is just to aggressive. Maybe it's a product of playing in the Euro leagues but it seems he just wants to challenge the shooters.. and it gets him out of position. His saving grace is he is quick so he can get back and if he makes the save it's usually in spectacular fashion.

It's all problems that can easily be worked out, and I'm sure they will. Though I would like to see him play more like Mike Smith, after Burke started coaching him. A game that is more quiet, and a little more back in the net. Play at the top of the crease rather then outside it.

[kipperfan]

I'm going to have to side with Wastedyouth on this one, I'm no expert but I don't see a (future) starting goaltender when I watch Reto Berra play. To me, Ramo has looked a bit more solid (even before tonight) and certainly someone who, IMO, should be getting way more starts then he is. Berra seems to have the coaching staff and/or management pulling for him though, so it might be tough for Kari to show what he can do on a regular basis.

[vilzeh]

I'm pissed if Rämö doesn't get a couple games now.

[Delthefunky]

I think it's still too early to declare anything with either 2 goalies, long term. Berra is a work in progress but he has some raw skill. Ramo to me has more experience, and that shows as he looks a lot more calm in net. Hopefully both can become better over the next year or two and we can pick the best to help groom Gillies in .

I have to disagree with Caged Great a bit about Berra having more skill then Ramo though. I think he is quicker and bigger, but he has a few weak points. One being his blocker side, and the other is keeping his stick where it needs to be!.