Election's Canada investigating "Robocall" Guelph Riding (and other ridings).

[Fire]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

Wow 31,000 complaints about robocaller in the past couple of days. Some one is going to go down hard.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics.../19450616.html

I wonder what percentage of those callers have real complaints and not just Liberal and NDP supporters that want the Conservatives to look bad.

[old-fart]

It's not even 31,000 complaints. It is 31,000 contacts. There is a website setup, conveniently by the friends on the NDP that will let you send a form e-mail to Elections Canada to "complain" about the Robocallers. It is just more muddying of the waters by the opposition to try and make this somehow significantly worse.

I look forward to the truth coming out.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I don't know if I agree with what your saying.

In the private world there are probably thousands of examples of individuals inside of organizations that have gone "rogue" so to speak.

The stock brokers who break their own organizations rules with backside trading.

The guy at HP who basically manufactured orders and PO's

The lady at airport security who robbed passengers during her search.

In each of those the organization isn't guilty its the individual.

It could very much be the same case here.

It almost sounds like your in a hurry to condemn the Cons before the investigation is complete.

Unless there's a direct chain of funding evidence or other things linking this robocall scandal to senior leadership in the conservatives, then its the act of rogue individuals.

And suppossedly the evil conservatives would put together a much more insideous conspiracy then this.

Legally speaking, employers and organizations are often vicariously liable for the actions of their employees and agents.

So far there is no evidence linking this scandal to any particular party, but I am surprised by the Conservative Party apologists who seem to think that this isn't a big deal. Some one is clearly behind this, and personally, I think that it is very important that we, as a country, learn who that was (political allegiances notwithstanding.)

[Smartcar]

No evidence, but cui bono?

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by Wormius

In your examples though, the individuals gain something for themselves, they are not doing it for the organization. What would an individual gain from helping someone else win a riding?

If they knew that there was something in it for them to commit this act, that would have been communicated from above or from somewhere. Why else would they spend their own money to do this? I don't know if this goes up the PMs office, but there is probably 2 or 3 levels above whoever did this that were making promises.

You do realize that every campaign has a huge amount of volunteers who donate their time to help someone else get elected. And for every volunteer I am sure there are 100 people who donate their own money to a campaign to help their party get elected. People do this because they believe in the person they are supporting not for their own financial gain.

[Bertuzzied]

You would think Harper also would do some sort of investigation before blasting the opposition.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/busines...765/story.html

More than a dozen Conservative MPs hired a U.S.-based telemarketing firm in the last federal election campaign, contrary to Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s claim that it was only the Liberals who employed American calling firms.The revelation comes as a political embarrassment to the governing Tories, who are on the defensive in the growing robocall controversy and had tried in the House of Commons to embarrass their critics.
Among those who used the American-based firm, Front Porch Strategies, in his own re-election bid was Peterborough, Ont., MP Dean Del Mastro, who is Harper’s parliamentary secretary and has been the government’s designated frontman in warding off questions over the robocall affair.
There is nothing illegal with a Canadian political party hiring an American firm to conduct its political telemarketing, but the Tories have tried to weaken the credibility of their rivals, the Liberals, by claiming they turned to foreign companies to do the work.
Last week, Del Mastro’s attack on the Liberals backfired when, in the House of Commons, he accused the Liberals of employing a U.S. calling firm. In fact, the Liberals say they used a Canadian company with the same name and there is no connection between the two firms.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Fire

I wonder what percentage of those callers have real complaints and not just Liberal and NDP supporters that want the Conservatives to look bad.

Originally Posted by old-fart

It's not even 31,000 complaints. It is 31,000 contacts. There is a website setup, conveniently by the friends on the NDP that will let you send a form e-mail to Elections Canada to "complain" about the Robocallers. It is just more muddying of the waters by the opposition to try and make this somehow significantly worse.

I look forward to the truth coming out.

It's easy to brand 31000 complaints as just that; other party members trying to stir the pot and make the Conservatives look bad. The thing is, if just one of the calls is legitimate its a nightmare for the Conservatives.

[driveway]

One thing that bothers me is that it wouldn't surprise me in the least if this did go right to the top of the Conservative party and that speaks to the culture and methods of the party and its leader.

I honestly think if the scandal pointed to Layton and the NDP most people would bet on it being rogue individuals - not that I'm an NDP voter - but that's how I perceive the culture of that party. Maybe it's unwarranted and perhaps some of it has to do with Layton's passing, but that's my perception.

The Liberals, I would also suspect it would be rogue operatives, mostly because I don't think the current iteration of the Liberal party would be capable of organizing a bake sale.

The Harper Conservatives on the other hand are renowned for their top-down organization and the ferocious centralization of their message. I also perceive Harper as willing to do pretty much anything to gain power and I think that mindset percolates through the whole Party.

Given those two things I feel it is likely there is some kind of party involvement and, even if Harper is completely unconnected to this, he has to bear some culpability for encouraging a culture where this kind of behaviour could be considered acceptable.

I honestly don't know how any of you could vote for this man or party.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by driveway

One thing that bothers me is that it wouldn't surprise me in the least if this did go right to the top of the Conservative party and that speaks to the culture and methods of the party and its leader.

I honestly think if the scandal pointed to Layton and the NDP most people would bet on it being rogue individuals - not that I'm an NDP voter - but that's how I perceive the culture of that party. Maybe it's unwarranted and perhaps some of it has to do with Layton's passing, but that's my perception.

The Liberals, I would also suspect it would be rogue operatives, mostly because I don't think the current iteration of the Liberal party would be capable of organizing a bake sale.

The Harper Conservatives on the other hand are renowned for their top-down organization and the ferocious centralization of their message. I also perceive Harper as willing to do pretty much anything to gain power and I think that mindset percolates through the whole Party.

Given those two things I feel it is likely there is some kind of party involvement and, even if Harper is completely unconnected to this, he has to bear some culpability for encouraging a culture where this kind of behaviour could be considered acceptable.

I honestly don't know how any of you could vote for this man or party.

This is the kind of paranoid crap that makes me laugh. If the other parties do it, its definitely rogue operatives. If the Cons did, Lord Harper and the other Sith planned it in the War Room.

I vote Conservative because they are the only party that goes to bat for this province and our primary industry. Give me a viable alternative that doesn't treat us like backwater hillbillies and I'll consider voting for them.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

This is the kind of paranoid crap that makes me laugh. If the other parties do it, its definitely rogue operatives. If the Cons did, Lord Harper and the other Sith planned it in the War Room.

Ah, I see you didn't understand what I wrote. That's cool.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by driveway

Ah, I see you didn't understand what I wrote. That's cool.

It's exactly what you wrote. I don't disagree that the Cons are known for dirty politics. But to give the other parties a pass is laughable.

[old-fart]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

It's exactly what you wrote. I don't disagree that the Cons are known for dirty politics. But to give the other parties a pass is laughable.

Exactly.

Libs and Dippers are quick to point out the horrible attack ads from the CONS conveniently forgetting the "guns in our streets" ads. The CONS apparently have a history that goes right to the top of dirty politics, yet the Liberals stole 1/4 Billion and that did go right to the top. What about Shawinigate? It doesn't get more obviously right to the top than that, yet it is the CONS with the reputation for dirty politics?

As I've said over and over, if anyone deliberately attempted to surpress or deny anyones right to vote in the last election, they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Having said that, if anyone actually believes that the LIBS or DIPPERS never called anyone at dinner, never had a rude volunteer or call center person, never contracted with a firm to do robo-calling that might have been considered annoying to non-supporters, never had a candidate lie about their opponent either on purpose or by mistake, never had a volunteer deface or destroy an opponents signs, never had a volunteer remove campaign literature from a mailbox while replacing with their own.... well, I've got a great bridge to sell you. It's red, like the Flames.

Find the people responsible for this and crush them. But knock off the rhetoric that it is ONLY the CONS that play politics dirty.

[EddyBeers]

Originally Posted by old-fart

Exactly.

Libs and Dippers are quick to point out the horrible attack ads from the CONS conveniently forgetting the "guns in our streets" ads. The CONS apparently have a history that goes right to the top of dirty politics, yet the Liberals stole 1/4 Billion and that did go right to the top. What about Shawinigate? It doesn't get more obviously right to the top than that, yet it is the CONS with the reputation for dirty politics?

As I've said over and over, if anyone deliberately attempted to surpress or deny anyones right to vote in the last election, they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Having said that, if anyone actually believes that the LIBS or DIPPERS never called anyone at dinner, never had a rude volunteer or call center person, never contracted with a firm to do robo-calling that might have been considered annoying to non-supporters, never had a candidate lie about their opponent either on purpose or by mistake, never had a volunteer deface or destroy an opponents signs, never had a volunteer remove campaign literature from a mailbox while replacing with their own.... well, I've got a great bridge to sell you. It's red, like the Flames.

Find the people responsible for this and crush them. But knock off the rhetoric that it is ONLY the CONS that play politics dirty.

Ah Shawinigate, the scandal where the alleged purpotrator lost hundreds of thousands of dollars on the deal. It is the Whitewater of Canadian politics, a bunch of right wingers waiving their arms around but not realizing there is nothing there.

A call at suppertime is far different from calling impersonating Elections Canada and misdirecting voters in multiple ridings, that is where the complaint lies. That, and the false impersonation of other political parties.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by driveway

One thing that bothers me is that it wouldn't surprise me in the least if this did go right to the top of the Conservative party and that speaks to the culture and methods of the party and its leader.

I honestly think if the scandal pointed to Layton and the NDP most people would bet on it being rogue individuals - not that I'm an NDP voter - but that's how I perceive the culture of that party. Maybe it's unwarranted and perhaps some of it has to do with Layton's passing, but that's my perception.

The Liberals, I would also suspect it would be rogue operatives, mostly because I don't think the current iteration of the Liberal party would be capable of organizing a bake sale.

The Harper Conservatives on the other hand are renowned for their top-down organization and the ferocious centralization of their message. I also perceive Harper as willing to do pretty much anything to gain power and I think that mindset percolates through the whole Party.

Given those two things I feel it is likely there is some kind of party involvement and, even if Harper is completely unconnected to this, he has to bear some culpability for encouraging a culture where this kind of behaviour could be considered acceptable.

I honestly don't know how any of you could vote for this man or party.

What a silly post, seriously.

Your making a accusation based on your own political leanings and not on any proof or evidence.

Ohhh its the Conservatives and Harper is evil booga booga booga, so it must be an organized thing going right to the top.

The Liberal's have had a history of very organized scandals and other odorous actions that go right to the top of the party in the past, but your giving them a pass because of their incompetence? The Liberal's wrote the manual on dirty politics that other parties follow.

Oh and Shawnigate to the other poster was not abou the purveyors losing money. Old disgusting Jean Chretien a scumbag if I've every heard of one managed to make a profit on it.

While there aren't great political options in this country. Until the Liberal's burn out their core and completely rebuild, and until the NDP, well the NDP are reverting back to their hopeless kitten status, I don't know how anyone votes for them.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by old-fart

Exactly.

Libs and Dippers are quick to point out the horrible attack ads from the CONS conveniently forgetting the "guns in our streets" ads. The CONS apparently have a history that goes right to the top of dirty politics, yet the Liberals stole 1/4 Billion and that did go right to the top. What about Shawinigate? It doesn't get more obviously right to the top than that, yet it is the CONS with the reputation for dirty politics?

As I've said over and over, if anyone deliberately attempted to surpress or deny anyones right to vote in the last election, they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Having said that, if anyone actually believes that the LIBS or DIPPERS never called anyone at dinner, never had a rude volunteer or call center person, never contracted with a firm to do robo-calling that might have been considered annoying to non-supporters, never had a candidate lie about their opponent either on purpose or by mistake, never had a volunteer deface or destroy an opponents signs, never had a volunteer remove campaign literature from a mailbox while replacing with their own.... well, I've got a great bridge to sell you. It's red, like the Flames.

Find the people responsible for this and crush them. But knock off the rhetoric that it is ONLY the CONS that play politics dirty.

That reputation is well-earned. How soon you gloss over the last election where the CPC moved millions of dollars against the election laws during the "in and out" scheme. But sure, let's talk about attack ads.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Slava

How soon you gloss over the last election where the CPC moved millions of dollars against the election laws during the "in and out" scheme.

Wasn't that the election before?

Edit: The election before the election before the last election (2006).

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Wasn't that the election before?

Edit: The election before the election before the last election (2006).

So many sleazy actions, so little time! I thought it was 2008 though?

Frankly the ethics of every federal party leave a lot to be desired, so to me it's just the CPC's turn to have their warts exposed.

[old-fart]

I'm honestly too lazy to look it up, but hasn't it been proven that all parties funnelled monies from local ridings to pay for regional ad buys, and didn't a court over-turn the ruling by EC that it was against the law (in fact, that the regional ad buys all did show the local candidates name and therefore were acceptable)?

I could be wrong, and it is early Monday so pre-coffee I'm too lazy to go looking.... perhaps later.

But just to clarify, the in-and-out scandal is ok to talk about in reference to this completely unrelated issue, but not any Liberal scandal - is that it?

[Jacks]

Well so much for the suppressing the vote argument.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2358726/

If we only focus on the ridings in which allegations of misleading robo-calls have been made, the turnout averaged 62 per cent. Compared to 2008, turnout increased by 4.7 per cent in these ridings. It increased by only 3.9 per cent in ridings that have not been implicated in the scandal.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Well so much for the suppressing the vote argument.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2358726/

Doesn't matter if it didn't work, or if the final results meant that it didn't matter.

The attempt is the problem.