Treliving needs to start feeling the heat

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by nik-

I think this is something that needs to be addressed because it's often taken backwards.

Bad teams aren't bad because they fire people too often. Bad teams are bad because their decision making process makes them hire bad people in the first place.

You don't just stay with someone because you need to "stop the insanity" of turnover. Turnover stops when your philosophy changes and you hire quality people. It will happen here when the Flames accept that their way of doing things is wholly ineffective.

I'm not saying Treliving should be fired now, but if the time comes, you don't keep him for the sake of stability. You don't hope the mediocrity goes away because of tenure and in spite of evidence and results.

I agree you can't just hang on to someone but I do think there is real value in stability. So when you are changing your top management, it should be done very carefully. Not because someone is unhappy that the coach hasn't been fired in mere days following the end of season, and somehow concluding on the basis of that - that he has a "inability to act".

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I agree you can't just hang on to someone but I do think there is real value in stability. So when you are changing your top management, it should be done very carefully. Not because someone is unhappy that the coach hasn't been fired in mere days following the end of season, and somehow concluding on the basis of that - that he has a "inability to act".

I can’t imagine a worse situation than a GM angrily firing a coach in a rush, and then having no plan. You better be sure you have at least a couple decent options available (that you, the GM, are truly interested in. Not “anyone is better than Gulutzan!”).

This timeline feels perfectly normal. And I also agree that the unfortunate event in Saskatchewan rightfully drew the organizations attention away from their operations for a few days.

[scotty2hotty]

Originally Posted by nik-

I'm just here to take bad people out of the context that it was clearly meant and get offended by it.

He likes to pretend he’s CP’s moral compass.

He takes things out of context to feign outrage.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by New Era

Bad teams are bad because the keep bringing in bad people in key positions.

They can also be bad because they get bad marching orders from those at the top of the organization. Ie. Make the playoffs and take shortcuts if you have to.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

They're can also be bad because they get bad marching orders from those at the top of the organization. Ie. Make the playoffs and take shortcuts if you have to.

Or there's something wrong with the organization culture in general. Like too much constant pressure and criticism. Maybe some of the owners do crazy stuff like call the coach or even some players at night to yell at them. We don't really know.

The above was mostly just hypotheticals, but it wouldn't actually surprise me if too much pressure was the problem.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

They're can also be bad because they get bad marching orders from those at the top of the organization. Ie. Make the playoffs and take shortcuts if you have to.

Originally Posted by Itse

Or there's something wrong with the organization culture in general. Like too much constant pressure and criticism. Maybe some of the owners do crazy stuff like call the coach or even some players at night to yell at them. We don't really know.

The above was mostly just hypotheticals, but it wouldn't actually surprise me if too much pressure was the problem.

I think it's both.

The organizations motto of "Playoffs at all costs" has set this team back in past seasons IMO.

I also think that ownership plays a much bigger role in the day to day of this team than we see. Was it Friedman who said that Murray tries to watch every game and talks to Burke/Trelving after each game?

The issue with ownership isn't that they are cheap, it's that they are impatient and want too much input into decisions they aren't qualified to make.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I also think that ownership plays a much bigger role in the day to day of this team than we see. Was it Friedman who said that Murray tries to watch every game and talks to Burke/Trelving after each game?

The issue with ownership isn't that they are cheap, it's that they are impatient and want too much input into decisions they aren't qualified to make.

This is my most disheartening realisation about the Flames. Another season out of the playoffs? Whatevs. There's always next season. Coach doesn't get the most out of the team? Ah well, coaches come and go - we'll have a new one soon enough. The chemistry and attitude of the roster isn't great? This too shall pass.

But the recognition that the rot in this franchise comes from the very top, from meddling, impatient ownership, has me seriously bummed. There's really nothing worse as a sports fan than realizing your team has bad ownership. Because that isn't a problem that lasts a year or two - it handicaps a team for as long as the owner is the owner. Which can be decades.

[midniteowl]

If Edwards is meddling, Gulutzan and the entire coaching staff would have been gone already, what owner would allow such incompetence ruining his toy.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by TOfan

'Bad people'

Question; have you ever met Glen Gulutzan? Ever talked to him about coaching hockey?

I think you are taking that too literally. Perhaps wrong would have been a better word to use. I certainly never took his post to mean that GG is a bad person, just the wrong coach.

[NiklasSundblad]

After Darren Haynes and I just had a twitter exchange about how far superior Vegas' bottom 6 is to ours, I have come to the conclusion that Treliving should probably be fired for it.

Dean Lombardi sure looks good right now.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by NiklasSundblad

After Darren Haynes and I just had a twitter exchange about how far superior Vegas' bottom 6 is to ours, I have come to the conclusion that Treliving should probably be fired for it.

Dean Lombardi sure looks good right now.

The bottom six IMO, is the biggest reason this team failed.

It's not all Trelivings fault though, as the 2013 and 2014 drafts really bombed. Those drafts, especially 2013 with 2 late first rounders (afetr the Mony pick at 6th) both used on forwards, is where we should have been able to get a lot of cheap depth from. Then it was compounded by dealing Granlund for Shinkaruk and a 2nd for Lazar. That equates to 2 firsts and 2 seconds on not one high end NHL player to show for it, just 3 AHLers and a bottom six forward who had 2 ####ing goals this season.

I know Treliving was here for the 2014 draft, but had just barely been hired so I cut him slack on that one. Besides, it's our 4th overall pick that should have been leading the charge on this one anyways, and Bennett was a no brainer at the time. Meanwhile, we get Hunter Smith while Anaheim gets Brandon Montour and Boston gets Ryan Donato. We get Brandon Hickey while Tampa gets Brayden Point and Nashville gets Viktor Arvidsson. Is it any wonder why these teams are elite while the Flames miss the playoffs?

Back to the bottom six fiasco, Stajan was already extended by Burke before BT got here, but BT's two biggest boners were signing Brouwer and losing Byron on waivers. You could also mention the Baertschi trade but Sven had already soured on the organization prior to BT getting here and forced his way out. When you think about Burke in the GM chair for about 8 months, its kind of scary. Besides the Stajan and Baertschi stuff, he also managed to give an ELC to stand out Dman Keegan flipping Kanzig in that time as well. This was literally only a few months after drafting him, when you have two years to evaluate and sign the guy. What foresight that was, wow. Frightening.

Another move BT made was trading Granlund. Granlund had a 19 goal season, and although his production dipped this year we would have been better off with him in the bottom six than guys like Hathaway or Lomberg or Glass. Not to mention Shinkaruk, who only played bottom six in Stockton.

Looking back, Versteeg getting hurt really hurt this teams bottom six forward group this year. But that's really kind of sad more than anything.

I give credit to BT though for things like learning from the Bouma disaster contract by not only buying him out when he flat lined, but also avoiding the same thing with arbitration eligible RFA bottom six forwards like Joe Colborne and Alex Chiasson.

The more you look at things, the more you start to see that maybe Burke should be turfed, BT should probably be the AGM that handles contract negotiations (he did an amazing job signing the core of this team to contracts below $7 million) and maybe somebody else should be handling the team building through trades and also UFA signings. Either that or the pro scouts should be sent packing through the same door Burke exits through.

Anyways, whatever the problem is they better get it figured out fast. The clock is already ticking and before you know it the core will be either too old, or running out of time on their current deals and looking for much bigger ones. Then all we'll have is a bunch of $10 million dollar players and no Cups to show for it. All because of a lack of quality bottom six forwards.

[CliffFletcher]

A poor bottom-six is a testament to poor drafting and development more than anything. And that can't be laid at the feet of Treliving alone. The Flames have been poor at drafting and development for decades now.

The remarkable thing is that the organization has kept the same head scout through a succession of managerial regimes, despite the poor results of the Flames scouting. Button must be a favourite of King and ownership.

The rot in this organization goes right to the top. It would be too bad if Treliving, who I think is the best GM this team has had since Cliff Fletcher, took the hit for years and years of institutional incompetence.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

A poor bottom-six is a testament to poor drafting and development more than anything. And that can't be laid at the feet of Treliving alone. The Flames have been poor at drafting and development for decades now.

The remarkable thing is that the organization has kept the same head scout through a succession of managerial regimes, despite the poor results of the Flames scouting. Button must be a favourite of King and ownership.

The rot in this organization goes right to the top. It would be too bad if Treliving, who I think is the best GM this team has had since Cliff Fletcher, took the hit for years and years of institutional incompetence.

President - buffoon
POHO - dinosaur
GM - ?
Coach - at best, 2 wasted years
Pro scouts - the worst in the league south of Edmonton

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

A poor bottom-six is a testament to poor drafting and development more than anything.

No, it is a testament to pissing away useful pieces like Byron, Baertschi, Granlund out of a misguided bottom 6 = size concept. Meanwhile that size - specifically Lazar, Hathaway, Brouwer, Glass, provided mostly zilch.

[dirk diggler]

at tbe time they were looking for a gm, i felt they should make a pitch for Paul Fenton from the Preds. that is a non cap team, maybe they aren't now but have always been one? they continually find players throughout the draft and ice competitive squads. so many later round picks have turned out to be impact players. if the flames get rid of BT, this is my choice

[Vedder]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

No, it is a testament to pissing away useful pieces like Byron, Baertschi, Granlund out of a misguided bottom 6 = size concept. Meanwhile that size - specifically Lazar, Hathaway, Brouwer, Glass, provided mostly zilch.

Losing Byron hurt for sure. The other two are a big meh. They have less than glowing numbers despite lots of opportunity on a bad team. Granlund’s numbers in particular are reminiscent of Joe Colborne on the rebuilding Flames. He is a replacement level forward.

This isn’t an endorsement of our bottom six, just don’t think those two are the missing pieces.

[Harry Lime]

When Jankowski came up for good, there were a few rumblings that they should bring up Mangnipane and Hathaway at the same time, who were tearing up the AHL as a line. Make them the 4th line, with established chemistry, and play hardball with the remaining bottom two lines to fight for the remaining spots.

In retrospect, I wonder if a power move like that could have stabilized the bottom six for the entire season.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Vedder

Losing Byron hurt for sure. The other two are a big meh. They have less than glowing numbers despite lots of opportunity on a bad team. Granlund’s numbers in particular are reminiscent of Joe Colborne on the rebuilding Flames. He is a replacement level forward.

This isn’t an endorsement of our bottom six, just don’t think those two are the missing pieces.

Maybe, but in his time here Granlund was a better replacement than most of the current bottom six

[dirk diggler]

i really hope BT is watching these playoffs and then following that up by watching some games the team he has put together played throughout the year. i understand its playoffs and thus more intensity, but watching the knights is something else, lots of speed and their "give a crap" meter is quite high. watching the flames this year is beyond boring

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

No, it is a testament to pissing away useful pieces like Byron, Baertschi, Granlund out of a misguided bottom 6 = size concept. Meanwhile that size - specifically Lazar, Hathaway, Brouwer, Glass, provided mostly zilch.

Byron didn’t solidify his spot, Baertschi asked for a trade (because Hartley?), and Granlund still wouldn’t have a spot at center today, where he performs best.

None of those three are guys that really fit at the time, I don’t think they were “pissed away” for size. Byron literally lost his spot to Mason Raymond of all people. Size?? Not in that guy.