Goalie Masks

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I think calling the reaction "outrage" is a bit much. The strongest reactions I've seen have actually been to the supposed outrage that caused Holtby to reconsider the mask.

Fair, my only knowledge of this is in this thread.

Either way, I think it’s art and I don’t think anyone has the right to claim any style of art except for the artist that created it.

I don’t see anything wrong with the mask and I don’t have an issue that it was created by a (presumably) white person. To me it’s respectful and looks really cool.

We should be embracing and celebrating the fact that Holtby and the artist liked First Nation imagery enough to borrow inspiration from it, not forcing an apology and a new mask because it wasn’t made by a certain artist.

[P-DAZZLE]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

And if you think about it much of the Indigenous People of North America art is copied from the cave paintings discovered in Africa. Remember, we all immigrated from somewhere.

The issue lies in the fact that there was a deliberate attempt by the Canadian government to eliminate the culture of groups of people. So to then use that culture when it suits you ruffles some feathers. And that's what this is, as Scorp has said. I don't think there's a big call for Holtby's contract to be revoked or him to be banned from the NHL or something. It was a misstep and it is being corrected. It is great to be inspired by art in other cultures, but there are also a lot of factors at play.

[TheScorpion]

I'm really looking forward to seeing the new mask, honestly. There are so many amazing First Nations artists out there who don't get enough clients. DaveArt does like 100 masks a year, I think he'll be fine.

And again, nobody is "cancelling" Holts — he's not my favourite goalie but he's been an amazing advocate for social issues during his entire career. And he's handled this whole thing really well.

[VilleN]

Yeah, I honestly think this cultural appropriation stuff doesn’t actually make sense. I think it breeds more racism- not being allowed to appreciate another culture for fear of retribution isn’t a good thing IMO. We might as well throw out all modern music since it has been appropriated from African Americans (blues, jazz). How about pants? Appropriated from the mongols.

I think the line between things like Holtby’s mask and the Cleveland Indians logo ( clearly racist) is being blurred and IMHO it isn’t progress.

I just can’t see why a white artist can’t appreciate the art and symbolism of another culture... isn’t this what we want as a society? Where we respect and appreciate each other’s uniqueness? We have a long way to go in terms of ending racism, I just don’t see this as a step in that direction.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by MrMike

Braden Holtbys Canucks mask

I like it.

Spoiler!

Racist

[P-DAZZLE]

Originally Posted by VilleN

Yeah, I honestly think this cultural appropriation stuff doesn’t actually make sense. I think it breeds more racism- not being allowed to appreciate another culture for fear of retribution isn’t a good thing IMO. We might as well throw out all modern music since it has been appropriated from African Americans (blues, jazz). How about pants? Appropriated from the mongols.

I think the line between things like Holtby’s mask and the Cleveland Indians logo ( clearly racist) is being blurred and IMHO it isn’t progress.

I just can’t see why a white artist can’t appreciate the art and symbolism of another culture... isn’t this what we want as a society? Where we respect and appreciate each other’s uniqueness? We have a long way to go in terms of ending racism, I just don’t see this as a step in that direction.

I definitely understand what you mean, because the mask artwork isn't inherently racist like the Cleveland logo and DaveArt probably did appreciate the art and symbolism of another culture. I think the issue as I tried to say in my last post, is that we have been so far from properly appreciating First Nations culture in Canada for so long, that even when something like this is reverent, there is such a deficit already. I don't really expect someone living in Scandinavia to know all these ins and outs, but Holtby or people within the Canucks organization can figure out the best way to approach things. The fact that colonialism has a history or is in its essence profiting off other cultures while systematically eliminating what doesn't benefit the colonizer is the issue. Can Holtby or Dave Gunnarsson solve all the issues of colonialism? No, of course not. But they have a platform where they can reach a lot of people in BC and a lot of kids in a positive way if they go about things the right way. I think this can be a really positive story that leads to more understanding. If people want Holtby hanged, drawn, and quartered, then that is an overreaction, especially since he hasn't doubled down, and that is something some people take too far. Make it a positive story and don't further condemn him.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by P-DAZZLE

The issue lies in the fact that there was a deliberate attempt by the Canadian government to eliminate the culture of groups of people. So to then use that culture when it suits you ruffles some feathers. And that's what this is, as Scorp has said. I don't think there's a big call for Holtby's contract to be revoked or him to be banned from the NHL or something. It was a misstep and it is being corrected. It is great to be inspired by art in other cultures, but there are also a lot of factors at play.

If you can find a society that doesn’t have its hands stained with the blood of atrocities, I’d love to know who they are.

Near as I can tell, they don’t exist.

[P-DAZZLE]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Racist

I think the wording is in fact pretty racist or at least insensitive. A "Canadian north west cost myth", and I don't care about the spelling mistake, is not exactly accurate or precise and paying any credit or acknowledgement. If DaveArt had known and properly attributed something, I think the whole thing would have gone over fine. If he had written "The thunderbird is an important symbol in Haida culture symbolizing power and strength," or whatever was the case, that would sit a lot better.

[P-DAZZLE]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

If you can find a society that doesn’t have its hands stained with the blood of atrocities, I’d love to know who they are.

Near as I can tell, they don’t exist.

That's true. I for one would hope that acknowledging them can make it so they don't happen at the same scale ever again and so that people who have had their lives altered by them can heal and we can have a better society for everyone. If allowing people to get work and a high profile placement of their artwork helps that, it seems a very small price for anyone to pay. This has happened with one of DaveArt's hundreds of masks.

[P-DAZZLE]

Totally separate issue, doesn't the idea of a Thunderbird snatching the orca from the water seem like a terrible idea for a Canucks mask? I like that the Flames have done some stuff with local firefighters, but this is like if Markstrom's new mask was some flames being doused with water and put out. You shouldn't have your team's logo being defeated or destroyed on your mask.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I think it would have been far better—great, actually—if a First Nations person was the one who designed and painted the mask. Having a white person design and paint a mask with elements like that is pretty cut-and-dried cultural appropriation.

I think paying tribute to local Indigenous culture on a goalie mask is a good idea and this design probably came out of good intentions. But to do it properly, let a First Nations artist design it.

This line of thinking is utterly absurd. It's concerning that young people such as yourself have been conditioned to think in such an illiberal manner.

The entirely of human history is littered with examples of borrowing (and stealing) from other cultures. Be it art, architecture, cuisine, technology or any other facet of civilization - this is a positive thing. To suggest that a specific ethnic group has a monopoly over an artform is racist.

As long as the artist is being respectful towards the tradition of west coast indigenous art and not drawing as caricature, there is nothing wrong with incorporating these elements into a design.

[P-DAZZLE]

It's not illiberal. It entirely depends on how you view it whether it is liberal or illiberal.

People are free to criticize something and exercised their liberal right to do so. Holtby chose to respond to the criticism in an appropriate way. It would be illiberal to not allow Holtby to wear the mask (especially because it is not promoting hatred or using racist symbols or anything, this is of course not the intent). That isn't happening though. I also think that there is a degree to how important certain things are within a culture and a degree to which they have been oppressed.

Considering First Nations groups were heavily oppressed and efforts were made to strip them of culture, many people don't think it is ok to 'borrow' or 'steal' these aspects of their culture. "As long as the artist is being respectful" is fine by me. There were some ways in which this wasn't respectful and lacked consideration. Was it Chief Wahoo or calling your team a slur? No. But also, who decides what is respectful? The article I linked had pretty even-keeled, reasonable quotes about how some First Nations people didn't consider it respectful.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by P-DAZZLE

It's not illiberal. It entirely depends on how you view it whether it is liberal or illiberal.

People are free to criticize something and exercised their liberal right to do so. Holtby chose to respond to the criticism in an appropriate way. It would be illiberal to not allow Holtby to wear the mask (especially because it is not promoting hatred or using racist symbols or anything, this is of course not the intent). That isn't happening though. I also think that there is a degree to how important certain things are within a culture and a degree to which they have been oppressed.

Considering First Nations groups were heavily oppressed and efforts were made to strip them of culture, many people don't think it is ok to 'borrow' or 'steal' these aspects of their culture. "As long as the artist is being respectful" is fine by me. There were some ways in which this wasn't respectful and lacked consideration. Was it Chief Wahoo or calling your team a slur? No. But also, who decides what is respectful? The article I linked had pretty even-keeled, reasonable quotes about how some First Nations people didn't consider it respectful.

Well stated, now I have a question for you in regards to stealing from other peoples culture, what about when Native Americans wear western boots and hats, are they stealing from white culture?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Well stated, now I have a question for you in regards to stealing from other peoples culture, what about when Native Americans wear western boots and hats, are they stealing from white culture?

Are you suggesting “western” boots and hats are white culture...

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by VilleN

Yeah, I honestly think this cultural appropriation stuff doesn’t actually make sense. I think it breeds more racism- not being allowed to appreciate another culture for fear of retribution isn’t a good thing IMO. We might as well throw out all modern music since it has been appropriated from African Americans (blues, jazz). How about pants? Appropriated from the mongols.

This is my issue with the cultural appropriation wave that's been ongoing for the past decade. It's racist if someone of a different race does it. How does that make any sense? It breeds of exclusivity, and wanting to keep something from others. And with how sensitive we are, and the willingness to overcompensate to make amends, it's been been able to have the trump card strength it has had of late.

If we aren't willing to allow those of other race to participate/pay homage to something that's identified with the culture of another race, we're censoring art and culture, and many of what we see today, would not be allowed since only a certain person of colour can partake in it. And if that's the case, then what is the point of having a multicultural country? Or even doing cultural events that's open to the public?

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I think it would have been far better—great, actually—if a First Nations person was the one who designed and painted the mask. Having a white person design and paint a mask with elements like that is pretty cut-and-dried cultural appropriation.

I think paying tribute to local Indigenous culture on a goalie mask is a good idea and this design probably came out of good intentions. But to do it properly, let a First Nations artist design it.

I don't understand what cultural approiation is anymore. In Canada we are suppose to embrace,celebrate and incorporate it. Then when people do it they are shunned. I just dont get it anymore . I remember at the university of Ottawa they shut down a free yoga class because a white guy was teaching that and it was labeled "cultural appropriation ".

It's turning in to no races or cultures should do anything from another culture even if it's respectful . Technically I shouldn't take part in anything not Irish or Dutch. I'm firs gen raised heavily in those cultures especially the Dutch culture.

Also relating to the outrage of the mask , wouldn't the whole Canucks orca jersey fall under the exact same umbrella as the mask?

"Cultural appropriation" outrage seems kinda racist within it's self.Kinda seems like fascist along the lines of "keep the race pure" vibes .

[P-DAZZLE]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Well stated, now I have a question for you in regards to stealing from other peoples culture, what about when Native Americans wear western boots and hats, are they stealing from white culture?

It's not that difficult and was in my post. If one group is historically oppressed, this is when it is an issue.

I think Cowboy hats are a relatively new thing and weren't actually worn much historically. I'd consider them part of Calgary culture, but that's not white culture. Do I think western boots and hats are akin to culturally important artwork or mythology? No.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by P-DAZZLE

It's not that difficult and was in my post. If one group is historically oppressed, this is when it is an issue.

I think Cowboy hats are a relatively new thing and weren't actually worn much historically. I'd consider them part of Calgary culture, but that's not white culture. Do I think western boots and hats are akin to culturally important artwork or mythology? No.

My family home in Netherlands 13 people were there that night when nazi troopers busted in and ony 3 people left alive. Should you be allowed to do anything dutch?

Find a culture that has never been oppreseed. If you do things respectfully and tastefully to pay homage to that culture what's the ####ing problem? Unless your a rasist that doesn't want that. We live in Canada and are taught to embrace and integrate other cultures into your own life . How do you do that when its considered rasist to do what people want?

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I'm really looking forward to seeing the new mask, honestly. There are so many amazing First Nations artists out there who don't get enough clients. DaveArt does like 100 masks a year, I think he'll be fine.

And again, nobody is "cancelling" Holts — he's not my favourite goalie but he's been an amazing advocate for social issues during his entire career. And he's handled this whole thing really well.

Ya because he was shamed into having to make a public apology.

I really wish the media would stop covering (promoting) these stories the minute some wanna-be artist on social media is offended.

It was CTV running with this today. Just like they ran a national story a few weeks back when other snowflakes were offended by the Toronto realtors who put up the Ninja billboard and were shamed into making an apology that was so over the top it was nauseating.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

My family home in Netherlands 13 people were there that night when nazi troopers busted in and ony 3 people left alive. Should you be allowed to do anything dutch?

You know perfectly well how the game is played. That doesn't count because the Dutch are white, and therefore they are always oppressors and never oppressed, by definition. (I am not joking. I have personally seen claims made that neither Jews nor Armenians were ever oppressed because white people have never suffered from oppression.)

I've been through all this BS in my own line of work, and it stinks. If you don't use elements from other people's cultures, you're racist because that's not inclusive. If you do use elements from other people's cultures, you're racist because that's cultural appropriation.

There is nothing you can possibly do to appease your accusers, except drop out and stop working. I've seen careers destroyed, people fired, people hounded out of professional organizations over this stuff. It brings absolutely no good to anybody.