Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[blankall]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Isn't it also true that many people throughout history who were fighting to establish a nation also committed many atrocities that today would be called terrorism, there was a Jewish organization in the 40's called the Irgun who believed that terrorism was justifiable to establish a country.

If you're going to just brush off everything as well war is hell, well occupation is no picnic either.

Either way, you can't just expect Israel to just sit back and let someone commit acts of terror on them. The totally expected response to any kind of attack is a military one.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by T@T

Don't know, The UN "allows" rockets?

It seems as though they do... as there have been, not 1, not 2, but 3 UN schools that have been discovered, so far, to be rocket warehouses.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/rockets...or-third-time/

Surely the UN could post a few of these in and around their buildings to ensure they are not used for military purposes.







.... and what happens to those rockets, once they have been discovered in a UN school? Why the UN tells Hamas to collect their property and not to do it again... LOL

Its no wonder that Hamas is using UN hospitals as military command centers.

As far as I'm concerned, the UN is one of the most useless organizations out there and what Canada pays to that organization on a yearly basis is a waste of money. I mean really, is there a more impotent and biased "world" organization out there?

Lets ask Romeo Dallaire his opinion on the UN. I doubt he thinks very highly of it.

[Itse]

I've been reading this thread on and off, and thinking about whether or not I should say anything. Mostly I've obviously felt that it's pointless, but I guess I'll just voice my thoughts on what my view of the situation in Israel is.

Words like "war" or "cycle of violence" are incredibly poor descriptions of the situation.

Israel is a country which has enforced a violent apartheid system essentially throughout it's whole existence. The driving force behind the conflict is mostly Israel inner politics. When extreme zionist ideas are popular, violence soon rises afterwards.

Hardline zionism, for those that don't know is a rather typical right-wing extremist movement that calls for the ethnic cleansing of Israel from non-jews. (Mostly arabs.) In other words, despite it's somewhat unusual roots, it's ultimately yet another run-of-the-mill racist ultranationalistic movement bent on destruction of those it sees as inferior human beings.

"War" is also an extremely poor description of a situation. In effect Israel is simply using it's military force against it's own citizens, namely the ethnic minority of arabs, who have been denied not only of basic democratic rights but at this point have mostly been denied ways to even make a living anymore. The "opposing forces" of the government are poorly armed guerilla forces (which enjoy only a questionable popularity in Palestine).

The closest historical reference point would be South Africa in the Apartheid era. (Nelson Mandela was a terrorist too, in case people have forgot.)

There isn't really that much of a grey area here. While many "balanced" views like to talk vaguely of a "long history of violence", when you actually start looking at the history of Israel, it really just starts to look even worse.

The situation we have now was mostly born in 1948 when jewish troops drove around 700,00 arabs out of their homes for the purpose of creating a jewish state of Israel. In the first decade after the creation of Israel thousands of refugees that attempted to either return home or get their property from their old homes were killed by the Israel army.

Today there are an estimated 2,000,000 arab refugees within Israel, a situation which blatantly points out how badly the government treats it's arab minority. Millions more live outside the countries borders without a place to go.

Israel has also been countless times convicted of human rights violations and abuses of military power by pretty much every international organization that has ever studied the area. Israel adamantly refuses to respect Geneve conventions when it comes to it's arab population, and generally even refuses to admit they have rights.

Israel has also been offered peace numerous times by every Palestinian organization and every neighbouring country.

As late as 2005 over 170 Palestinian organizations from labour unions to political parties joined forces to make demands to Israel.

The list was very simple:
1) End to the military occupation of Palestinian areas
2) Equality and democratic rights for the Palestinian population of Israel
3) Allowing the Palestinian population to return to their homes.

This proclamation gives a rather clear picture of what are the actual mainstream demands of the Palestinans. Peace, equality and a roof over their head. They made no threats of violence, only threats of boycott.


Since the 1970's the Arab countries have repeatedly and consistently offered peace and the normalization of political relationships to Israel in return if Israel would stop the occupation of West Bank. This suggestion was last repeated in 2007 by 58 countries of the OIC.

Hamas has also numerous times offered cease-fires to Israel, which Israel has generally either refused or broken. (For example, they broke the 2012 cease-fire over one hundred times in the first three months.)


In contrast, the government of Israel has numerous times (last time just this summer with the voice of Netanyahu) stated that it will never negotiate about ending it's military rule of the arab population, and has a long history of either refusing to come to the table (such as in refusing to talk with IOC in 2007) or effectively just saying no to everything. (Camp David.)

It's also important to remember that when the IDF attacks Gaza, it has history of specifically targeting infrastructure, through for example a "deliberate and systematic policy to target industrial sites and water installations".

They have also openly previously admitted to deliberately attacking Palestinian police forces and government organizations for the express purpose of destroying the possibility of the Palestinians to govern themselves.

(Considering what the targets of the IDF have been, the term "human shields" is more than slighty perverse if you ask me.)

Right now they seem to have moved to targeting a disproportionate amount of schools and hospitals, which really makes sense since there really isn't much else to destroy there.

Even basic staticistal studies clearly show that if Israel was actually interested in ending the violence in it's area, it mostly would have to just stop breaking cease-fire agreements made with Hamas or other Palestinian organizations. Or in other words, not kill Palestinians.

(Here's another statistical study showing "it is overwhelmingly Israel, not Palestine, that kills first following a lull. Indeed, it is virtually always Israel that kills first after a lull lasting more than a week".)



The Gaza area is reaching a point where it will be inevitably ethnically cleansed. The systematic destruction of infrastructure has has lead to a situation where by UN estimates the Gaza strip will be unlivable by 2020, six years from now. The area is almost completely cut off from resources and is effectively a concentration camp or a nazi-style ghetto. At this point it's impossible to say what will happen to the 1,8 million people living in that area, but Israel has made it very clear that it has no intentions of giving those people democratic rights that they obviously should have like anyone else living in Israel, and they have no intention of allowing those people to live normal, productive lives within Israel.

Basicly, Israel is a fundamentally racist state, using military force to support a racist system. The guerilla forces fighting them are in no way a significant threat. They have managed to kill less than 200 people in the last decade, despite several periods of open street fights. (For a point of reference, ANC, one of three main resistance forces in South Africa, killed some 50-100 people in their 80's campaign of violence.)

In contrast, the IDF has killed more than 1500 Palestinians just this summer, and that's not even counting the people who have died for example from lack of normal medical care. Whether or not you like the guerillas such as Hamas, in contrast they're a rather insignificant evil.

Let me repeat: There is no "war". There is an oppressive system of racism and a small and militarily insignificant resistance to it.

Statistically speaking, "the war in Gaza" is pretty much like this.

There are many complicated conflicts in the world where it's hard to pick a side to support. While the conflict in Israel/Palestine is admittedly very complicated in all it's geopolitical and historical sidetracks, every study, statistic, statement and historical example point in the same direction:

If Israel would give the Palestinians the same rights as jews enjoy there, most of the violence would go away. (Of course that would mean they'd have to deal with other problems, such as the extreme povery of a significant part of it's population, which is a large reason why they don't want to do that.)

The only logical conclusion is that Israel needs to be put under international pressure to stop it's apartheid politics. It worked in South Africa, it can work in Israel. What is lacking is the international will.

(There are many reasons for this, but some are very simple and easy to understand. Israel for example rather blatantly plays both sides in the Russia/US power struggle. Should US put pressure on Israel, they can always turn to Putin for support, who would obviously jump at the possibility.)

[Itse]

I can also recommend this article.

http://www.thenation.com/article/180...gaza-debunked#

According to the National Lawyers Guild, Physicians for Human Rights-Israel, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, Israel directly targeted civilians or recklessly caused civilian deaths during Operation Cast Lead.

Hamas hides its weapons in homes, mosques and schools and uses human shields...

International human rights organizations that have investigated these claims have determined that they are not true.

In fact, only Israeli soldiers have systematically used Palestinians as human shields. Since Israel’s incursion into the West Bank in 2002, it has used Palestinians as human shields by tying young Palestinians onto the hoods of their cars or forcing them to go into a home where a potential militant may be hiding.

[Arya Stark]

Great post Itse. By far the best post in this thread.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Rerun

It seems as though they do... as there have been, not 1, not 2, but 3 UN schools that have been discovered, so far, to be rocket warehouses.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/rockets...or-third-time/

Mainstream Israel newspapers are maybe not the most reliable source of information on whether or not IDF claims are true or not.

Let me quote from the article I linked previously.

Israel has yet to prove that Hamas has used civilian infrastructure to store military weapons. The two cases where Hamas indeed stored weapons in UNRWA schools, the schools were empty. UNRWA discovered the rockets and publicly condemned the violation of its sanctity.

Besides, again, even if Hamas did hide rockets in schools in Gaza, that does not mean it's okay for IDF to bomb them. Israel can't put a part of it's population under military rule and then claim that it's fighting a war against them as if they were an outside force.

Let's make one thing clear:

Gaza is Israel, by every definition of international law. If Hamas is hiding weapons in schools in Gaza, they are hiding them in schools in Israel. IDF is bombing the schools of it's own population. But of course, only a specific part of it's population.

Let's say for example that Al-Qaida was found out to be hiding weapons in schools in Edmonton. Following your logic, it would be perfectly cool for the RCAF to bomb which ever schools it thought might have weapons in them. We all hate Edmontonians here anyway, right?

[redforever]

Itse I've been reading this thread on and off, and thinking about whether or not I should say anything. Mostly I've obviously felt that it's pointless, but I guess I'll just voice my thoughts on what my view of the situation in Israel is.

.......


In contrast, the government of Israel has numerous times (last time just this summer with the voice of Netanyahu) stated that it will never negotiate about ending it's military rule of the arab population, and has a long history of either refusing to come to the table (such as in refusing to talk with IOC in 2007) or effectively just saying no to everything. (Camp David.)

*****

That is simply not true. In fact, Yasser Arafat is widely known to be the cause of Camp David failing. Even Clinton who brokered the peace talks at Camp David has said that is the case.

Accusations of Palestinian responsibility

Most of the Israeli and American criticism for the failure of the 2000 Camp David Summit was leveled at Arafat. Ehud Barak portrays Arafat’s behavior at Camp David as a “performance geared to exact as many Israeli concessions as possible without ever seriously intending to reach a peace settlement or sign an “end to the conflict.

Clinton blamed Arafat after the failure of the talks, stating, "I regret that in 2000 Arafat missed the opportunity to bring that nation into being and pray for the day when the dreams of the Palestinian people for a state and a better life will be realized in a just and lasting peace." The failure to come to an agreement was widely attributed to Yasser Arafat, as he walked away from the table without making a concrete counter-offer and because Arafat did little to quell the series of Palestinian riots that began shortly after the summit. Arafat was also accused of scuttling the talks by Nabil Amr, a former minister in the Palestinian Authority. In My Life, Clinton wrote that Arafat once complimented Clinton by telling him, "You are a great man." Clinton responded, "I am not a great man. I am a failure, and you made me one."

Dennis Ross, the US Middle East envoy and a key negotiator at the summit, summarized his perspectives in his book The Missing Peace. During a lecture in Australia, Ross suggested that the reason for the failure was Arafat's unwillingness to sign a final deal with Israel that would close the door on any of the Palestinians' maximum demands, particularly the right of return. Ross claimed that what Arafat really wanted was "a one-state solution. Not independent, adjacent Israeli and Palestinian states, but a single Arab state encompassing all of Historic Palestine".

In his book, The Oslo Syndrome, Harvard Medical School professor of psychiatry and historian Kenneth Levin summarized the failure of the 2000 Camp David Summit in this manner: "Despite the dimensions of the Israeli offer and intense pressure from President Clinton, Arafat demurred. He apparently was indeed unwilling, no matter what the Israeli concessions, to sign an agreement that declared itself final and forswore any further Palestinian claims." Levin argues that both the Israelis and the Americans were naive in expecting that Arafat would agree to give up the idea of a literal "right of return" for all Palestinians into Israel proper no matter how many 1948 refugees or how much monetary compensation Israel offered to allow.

Alan Dershowitz, an Israel advocate and a law professor at Harvard University, said that the failure of the negotiations was due to "the refusal of the Palestinians and Arafat to give up the right of return. That was the sticking point. It wasn't Jerusalem. It wasn't borders. It was the right of return." He claimed that President Clinton told this to him "directly and personally."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Itse

Let's say for example that Al-Qaida was found out to be hiding weapons in schools in Edmonton. Following your logic, it would be perfectly cool for the RCAF to bomb which ever schools it thought might have weapons in them. We all hate Edmontonians here anyway, right?

What a poor example that does nothing to support your argument and only makes it ridiculous. Regardless of what side you support.

[redforever]

Itse

In fact, only Israeli soldiers have systematically used Palestinians as human shields. Since Israel’s incursion into the West Bank in 2002, it has used Palestinians as human shields by tying young Palestinians onto the hoods of their cars or forcing them to go into a home where a potential militant may be hiding.

That is true and I don't deny it. And it is nothing to be proud of in the least.

However, that practice no longer exists as the Israeli gov't put a stop to it. There are checks and balances in Israel, just as there are in Canada.

Three or four of our Canadian RCMP officers also tasered a man in the Vancouver airport and that man died. Canada too has checks and balances and those RCMP officers were brought to trial because of it.

What checks and balances does Hamas use?

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Itse

I've been reading this thread on and off, and thinking about whether or not I should say anything. Mostly I've obviously felt that it's pointless, but I guess I'll just voice my thoughts on what my view of the situation in Israel is.

Words like "war" or "cycle of violence" are incredibly poor descriptions of the situation.

Originally Posted by Itse

Israel is a country which has enforced a violent apartheid system essentially throughout it's whole existence. The driving force behind the conflict is mostly Israel inner politics. When extreme zionist ideas are popular, violence soon rises afterwards.

What a bunch of BS, seriously. Israel is a nation where everyone has the same rights. The problem Israel has is violence in pretty much the entire surrounding region.

Originally Posted by Itse

Hardline zionism, for those that don't know is a rather typical right-wing extremist movement that calls for the ethnic cleansing of Israel from non-jews. (Mostly arabs.) In other words, despite it's somewhat unusual roots, it's ultimately yet another run-of-the-mill racist ultranationalistic movement bent on destruction of those it sees as inferior human beings.

No it is not. Zionism is simply the term for a belief that Jews have a right to their homeland. Simple as that. Are there twisted versions of that? Probably. Don't try to 'educate' people with your nonsense.

Originally Posted by Itse

"War" is also an extremely poor description of a situation. In effect Israel is simply using it's military force against it's own citizens, namely the ethnic minority of arabs, who have been denied not only of basic democratic rights but at this point have mostly been denied ways to even make a living anymore. The "opposing forces" of the government are poorly armed guerilla forces (which enjoy only a questionable popularity in Palestine).

More rubbish. Israel is a nation as legit as Canada. Your so called opposing forces are there to make the only democracy with real human rights in the region a wasteland. Israel works very hard to prevent that.

Originally Posted by Itse

The closest historical reference point would be South Africa in the Apartheid era. (Nelson Mandela was a terrorist too, in case people have forgot.)

More lies and nonsense. It barely took you 100 words to get this type of hate speech out.

Originally Posted by Itse

There isn't really that much of a grey area here. While many "balanced" views like to talk vaguely of a "long history of violence", when you actually start looking at the history of Israel, it really just starts to look even worse.

Sure, if people listen to you, or where you grab your garbage material from. I am becoming sick with this nonsense.

Originally Posted by Itse

The situation we have now was mostly born in 1948 when jewish troops drove around 700,00 arabs out of their homes for the purpose of creating a jewish state of Israel. In the first decade after the creation of Israel thousands of refugees that attempted to either return home or get their property from their old homes were killed by the Israel army.

Sure, got proof for that? Israel got a state, as did other people, and Israel got attacked. There certainly were people kicked out, not all, and it certainly was not state mandated or anything like that. The rest left on their own, or left expecting Jews to be exterminated so they could return. Israel was under attack - those that joined in on the attack were certainly marched out. But yah, there were incidents where other people were forced out. By the way, how many Jews kicked out of other Arab countries? Ever cry for them? There is no way Israel is letting them back in, there is too much of a threat for violence. How many of these people were from Jordan or Egypt? You don't care, now do you? Only Israel is what you care about.

Originally Posted by Itse

Today there are an estimated 2,000,000 arab refugees within Israel, a situation which blatantly points out how badly the government treats it's arab minority. Millions more live outside the countries borders without a place to go.

And how should Israel treat these groups? These same people also had issues in other countries, and you know exactly what I am talking about. But only Israel must do something? For peace, Israel would do a lot. Without peace they are clearly not doing much.

Originally Posted by Itse

Israel has also been countless times convicted of human rights violations and abuses of military power by pretty much every international organization that has ever studied the area. Israel adamantly refuses to respect Geneve conventions when it comes to it's arab population, and generally even refuses to admit they have rights.

Certainly have, while some other countries who have murdered more than this conflict will ever see are glossed over. YOu know that as well as anyone else, it has been highlighted in this thread.

Originally Posted by Itse

Israel has also been offered peace numerous times by every Palestinian organization and every neighbouring country.

You are kidding right?

Originally Posted by Itse

As late as 2005 over 170 Palestinian organizations from labour unions to political parties joined forces to make demands to Israel.

The list was very simple:
1) End to the military occupation of Palestinian areas
2) Equality and democratic rights for the Palestinian population of Israel
3) Allowing the Palestinian population to return to their homes.

Maybe you missed the part that Israel wants peace and cannot provide autonomy in any way shape or form until Palestinians stamp out the hate. Are there other parts of the Arab world where there is equality and democratic rights?

Originally Posted by Itse

This proclamation gives a rather clear picture of what are the actual mainstream demands of the Palestinans. Peace, equality and a roof over their head. They made no threats of violence, only threats of boycott.

Interesting, I wonder who has been committing acts of terrorism against Israeli civilians?

Originally Posted by Itse

Since the 1970's the Arab countries have repeatedly and consistently offered peace and the normalization of political relationships to Israel in return if Israel would stop the occupation of West Bank. This suggestion was last repeated in 2007 by 58 countries of the OIC.

Interesting as well. These same nations who have provided such equality and peaceful relations with their own citizens?

Originally Posted by Itse

Hamas has also numerous times offered cease-fires to Israel, which Israel has generally either refused or broken. (For example, they broke the 2012 cease-fire over one hundred times in the first three months.)

So Hamas, who has a goal to kill every Jew, just like Hezbollah, is offering a ceasefire? Ceasefire for a day or two? They only exist to murder Jews, just ask them, they are very clear about this.

Originally Posted by Itse

In contrast, the government of Israel has numerous times (last time just this summer with the voice of Netanyahu) stated that it will never negotiate about ending it's military rule of the arab population, and has a long history of either refusing to come to the table (such as in refusing to talk with IOC in 2007) or effectively just saying no to everything. (Camp David.)

Israel will not end military rule until they feel there is a security risk. Who is in charge of Egypt? Do you realize the military put in jail or sentenced to death the Muslim Brotherhood? So Egypt refused to fall for this nonsense but Israel should?

Originally Posted by Itse

It's also important to remember that when the IDF attacks Gaza, it has history of specifically targeting infrastructure, through for example a "deliberate and systematic policy to target industrial sites and water installations".

Yes, it is war, that is what happens. Not sure why Hamas keeps launching rockets?

Originally Posted by Itse

They have also openly previously admitted to deliberately attacking Palestinian police forces and government organizations for the express purpose of destroying the possibility of the Palestinians to govern themselves.

Israel makes things very clear - you enforce the laws, including those laws that protect Israel, or they will do it for you.

Originally Posted by Itse

(Considering what the targets of the IDF have been, the term "human shields" is more than slighty perverse if you ask me.)

Right now they seem to have moved to targeting a disproportionate amount of schools and hospitals, which really makes sense since there really isn't much else to destroy there.

Israel will be firing back on what it considers military targets. Perhaps those in Gaza will assist in getting rid of Hamas?

Originally Posted by Itse

Even basic staticistal studies clearly show that if Israel was actually interested in ending the violence in it's area, it mostly would have to just stop breaking cease-fire agreements made with Hamas or other Palestinian organizations. Or in other words, not kill Palestinians.

(Here's another statistical study showing "it is overwhelmingly Israel, not Palestine, that kills first following a lull. Indeed, it is virtually always Israel that kills first after a lull lasting more than a week".)

More nonsense, simply lies.

Originally Posted by Itse

QUOTE=Itse;4868282]The Gaza area is reaching a point where it will be inevitably ethnically cleansed. The systematic destruction of infrastructure has has lead to a situation where by UN estimates the Gaza strip will be unlivable by 2020, six years from now. The area is almost completely cut off from resources and is effectively a concentration camp or a nazi-style ghetto. At this point it's impossible to say what will happen to the 1,8 million people living in that area, but Israel has made it very clear that it has no intentions of giving those people democratic rights that they obviously should have like anyone else living in Israel, and they have no intention of allowing those people to live normal, productive lives within Israel.

Perhaps Palestinians can elect a government that will invest in infrastructure and maybe try to make peace and not war? They can't expect things to improve by firing rockets. Israel backed out and basically allowed Palestinians to make their bed, this is what they created. But you can blame Israel, just like everyone else.

Originally Posted by Itse

Basicly, Israel is a fundamentally racist state, using military force to support a racist system. The guerilla forces fighting them are in no way a significant threat. They have managed to kill less than 200 people in the last decade, despite several periods of open street fights. (For a point of reference, ANC, one of three main resistance forces in South Africa, killed some 50-100 people in their 80's campaign of violence.)

More hateful propaganda. People that read this garbage react, resulting in Palestinian violence all over the place, including innocent Jews in Calgary getting attacked. People that spread this garbage are part of the problem.

Originally Posted by Itse

In contrast, the IDF has killed more than 1500 Palestinians just this summer, and that's not even counting the people who have died for example from lack of normal medical care. Whether or not you like the guerillas such as Hamas, in contrast they're a rather insignificant evil.

Again, Hamas was firing rockets for years at Israel. What could Israel have done differently? That is a legit debate, not this type of garbage.

Originally Posted by Itse

Let me repeat: There is no "war". There is an oppressive system of racism and a small and militarily insignificant resistance to it.

More hatespeech. Hamas is 'insignificant'. Only because of the IDF. If Israel laid down it's weapons, the Jews would die. If Hamas laid down their weapons, we might be getting somewhere.

Originally Posted by Itse

If Israel would give the Palestinians the same rights as jews enjoy there, most of the violence would go away. (Of course that would mean they'd have to deal with other problems, such as the extreme povery of a significant part of it's population, which is a large reason why they don't want to do that.)

You are kidding right? Perhaps tell us which Arab country you want to emulate for all of those rights Palestinians should have? Or do you mean rights of those in Israel, like freedom of speech, sexuality, religion etc? You know, the fundamental stuff - the exact stuff the Arab world general seems to restrict.

Originally Posted by Itse

The only logical conclusion is that Israel needs to be put under international pressure to stop it's apartheid politics. It worked in South Africa, it can work in Israel. What is lacking is the international will.

(There are many reasons for this, but some are very simple and easy to understand. Israel for example rather blatantly plays both sides in the Russia/US power struggle. Should US put pressure on Israel, they can always turn to Putin for support, who would obviously jump at the possibility.)

Comparing Israel to South Africa is insane and hateful. There are far more relevant comparisons regarding Palestinians in the Arab world.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Rerun

From the article that Chill Crosby posted:

Netanyahu finally speaks his mind | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanya...#ixzz39Fcec000




In a lot of ways I agree with Prime Minister Netanyahu. It was definitely a huge mistake (security wise), on Israel's part, to pull out of Gaza.

Would not be surprised at all to see Israel move into Gaza on a permanent basis. Its the only way they will rid themselves of Hamas and any other terrorists. God forbid if ISIS should ever establish themselves in Gaza.

Thanks for posting that. A bad part of pulling out of Gaza (to me) is the fact that even with Hamas launching attacks, as we see in this thread, people still blame Israel. Israel provides some autonomy and this is the result. I wish common sense would prevail and Palestinians would point out every nook and cranny Hamas was hiding in so that Israel could 'liberate' them and somehow peace would prevail. The two sides would work it out and the West Bank would follow suit. That certainly did not happen.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Itse

I've been reading this thread on and off, and thinking about whether or not I should say anything. Mostly I've obviously felt that it's pointless, but I guess I'll just voice my thoughts on what my view of the situation in Israel is.

Words like "war" or "cycle of violence" are incredibly poor descriptions of the situation.

Israel is a country which has enforced a violent apartheid system essentially throughout it's whole existence. The driving force behind the conflict is mostly Israel inner politics. When extreme zionist ideas are popular, violence soon rises afterwards.

Hardline zionism, for those that don't know is a rather typical right-wing extremist movement that calls for the ethnic cleansing of Israel from non-jews. (Mostly arabs.) In other words, despite it's somewhat unusual roots, it's ultimately yet another run-of-the-mill racist ultranationalistic movement bent on destruction of those it sees as inferior human beings.

"War" is also an extremely poor description of a situation. In effect Israel is simply using it's military force against it's own citizens, namely the ethnic minority of arabs, who have been denied not only of basic democratic rights but at this point have mostly been denied ways to even make a living anymore. The "opposing forces" of the government are poorly armed guerilla forces (which enjoy only a questionable popularity in Palestine).

The closest historical reference point would be South Africa in the Apartheid era. (Nelson Mandela was a terrorist too, in case people have forgot.)

There isn't really that much of a grey area here. While many "balanced" views like to talk vaguely of a "long history of violence", when you actually start looking at the history of Israel, it really just starts to look even worse.

The situation we have now was mostly born in 1948 when jewish troops drove around 700,00 arabs out of their homes for the purpose of creating a jewish state of Israel. In the first decade after the creation of Israel thousands of refugees that attempted to either return home or get their property from their old homes were killed by the Israel army.

Today there are an estimated 2,000,000 arab refugees within Israel, a situation which blatantly points out how badly the government treats it's arab minority. Millions more live outside the countries borders without a place to go.

Israel has also been countless times convicted of human rights violations and abuses of military power by pretty much every international organization that has ever studied the area. Israel adamantly refuses to respect Geneve conventions when it comes to it's arab population, and generally even refuses to admit they have rights.

Israel has also been offered peace numerous times by every Palestinian organization and every neighbouring country.

As late as 2005 over 170 Palestinian organizations from labour unions to political parties joined forces to make demands to Israel.

The list was very simple:
1) End to the military occupation of Palestinian areas
2) Equality and democratic rights for the Palestinian population of Israel
3) Allowing the Palestinian population to return to their homes.

This proclamation gives a rather clear picture of what are the actual mainstream demands of the Palestinans. Peace, equality and a roof over their head. They made no threats of violence, only threats of boycott.


Since the 1970's the Arab countries have repeatedly and consistently offered peace and the normalization of political relationships to Israel in return if Israel would stop the occupation of West Bank. This suggestion was last repeated in 2007 by 58 countries of the OIC.

Hamas has also numerous times offered cease-fires to Israel, which Israel has generally either refused or broken. (For example, they broke the 2012 cease-fire over one hundred times in the first three months.)


In contrast, the government of Israel has numerous times (last time just this summer with the voice of Netanyahu) stated that it will never negotiate about ending it's military rule of the arab population, and has a long history of either refusing to come to the table (such as in refusing to talk with IOC in 2007) or effectively just saying no to everything. (Camp David.)

It's also important to remember that when the IDF attacks Gaza, it has history of specifically targeting infrastructure, through for example a "deliberate and systematic policy to target industrial sites and water installations".

They have also openly previously admitted to deliberately attacking Palestinian police forces and government organizations for the express purpose of destroying the possibility of the Palestinians to govern themselves.

(Considering what the targets of the IDF have been, the term "human shields" is more than slighty perverse if you ask me.)

Right now they seem to have moved to targeting a disproportionate amount of schools and hospitals, which really makes sense since there really isn't much else to destroy there.

Even basic staticistal studies clearly show that if Israel was actually interested in ending the violence in it's area, it mostly would have to just stop breaking cease-fire agreements made with Hamas or other Palestinian organizations. Or in other words, not kill Palestinians.

(Here's another statistical study showing "it is overwhelmingly Israel, not Palestine, that kills first following a lull. Indeed, it is virtually always Israel that kills first after a lull lasting more than a week".)



The Gaza area is reaching a point where it will be inevitably ethnically cleansed. The systematic destruction of infrastructure has has lead to a situation where by UN estimates the Gaza strip will be unlivable by 2020, six years from now. The area is almost completely cut off from resources and is effectively a concentration camp or a nazi-style ghetto. At this point it's impossible to say what will happen to the 1,8 million people living in that area, but Israel has made it very clear that it has no intentions of giving those people democratic rights that they obviously should have like anyone else living in Israel, and they have no intention of allowing those people to live normal, productive lives within Israel.

Basicly, Israel is a fundamentally racist state, using military force to support a racist system. The guerilla forces fighting them are in no way a significant threat. They have managed to kill less than 200 people in the last decade, despite several periods of open street fights. (For a point of reference, ANC, one of three main resistance forces in South Africa, killed some 50-100 people in their 80's campaign of violence.)

In contrast, the IDF has killed more than 1500 Palestinians just this summer, and that's not even counting the people who have died for example from lack of normal medical care. Whether or not you like the guerillas such as Hamas, in contrast they're a rather insignificant evil.

Let me repeat: There is no "war". There is an oppressive system of racism and a small and militarily insignificant resistance to it.

Statistically speaking, "the war in Gaza" is pretty much like this.

There are many complicated conflicts in the world where it's hard to pick a side to support. While the conflict in Israel/Palestine is admittedly very complicated in all it's geopolitical and historical sidetracks, every study, statistic, statement and historical example point in the same direction:

If Israel would give the Palestinians the same rights as jews enjoy there, most of the violence would go away. (Of course that would mean they'd have to deal with other problems, such as the extreme povery of a significant part of it's population, which is a large reason why they don't want to do that.)

The only logical conclusion is that Israel needs to be put under international pressure to stop it's apartheid politics. It worked in South Africa, it can work in Israel. What is lacking is the international will.

(There are many reasons for this, but some are very simple and easy to understand. Israel for example rather blatantly plays both sides in the Russia/US power struggle. Should US put pressure on Israel, they can always turn to Putin for support, who would obviously jump at the possibility.)

Not going to go through this point by point but a few major points.

1) Palestinians are not citizens of Israel, they are citizens of the Palestinian Authority.

2) Israel itself is an extremely diverse place. Not only do the Jews within Israel descend from all sorts of places (Ethiopia, Europe, the Middle East), but they have a 20% minority Arab population within their border that enjoys full rights. To put that in perspective, that 20% is among the highest of all countries in the old world.

3) The people of the Gaza Strip are the only ones who have committed ethnic cleansing...and religious cleansing. The Levant is an historically diverse place. The Gaza Strip is now 100% Arab and only a few hundred Christians remain.

[Blaster86]

Whilst Itse's post was full of biased thinking, some of these responses haven't been the greatest. I think Nage's is the only one that actually addressed anything other than attacking/trying to shame posters.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Interesting report by VICE

http://m.vice.com/read/israeli-racis...-kleinfeld-511

[redforever]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Isn't it also true that many people throughout history who were fighting to establish a nation also committed many atrocities that today would be called terrorism, there was a Jewish organization in the 40's called the Irgun who believed that terrorism was justifiable to establish a country.

If you're going to just brush off everything as well war is hell, well occupation is no picnic either.

Isn't that what I said?

Didn't I point out that there were some pretty atrocious acts committed by the Allied forces in WWII?

And no, occupation is not fun either. But until the terrorism stops, borders will not be opened. Egypt is just as much a part of the occupation...even more so perhaps since the Gazans used the access through Egypt for most of their goods that they shipped in on the black market.

People should be careful when pointing fingers because sometimes, those fingers point at you too.

I firmly believe that this current conflict is simply going to have to see itself out. If there is a solution, the Arab world is going to have to be instrumental in brokering peace.

It is too bad there is not an Arab leader like Anwar Sadat in the picture. There was a man with vision,who brokered a lasting peace with Israel. Sadly, what did he get for brokering that peace? He was assassinated.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by redforever

It is too bad there is not an Arab leader like Anwar Sadat in the picture. There was a man with vision,who brokered a lasting peace with Israel. Sadly, what did he get for brokering that peace? He was assassinated.

Really a shame nobody else learned from him, Sadat's policies and peaceful ways made Egypt a popular place to visit for tourism and since his death the economics of the country have gone down hill in a big way.

Crazy fact. he had a brother killed in the Egypt/Israel war.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by redforever

Isn't that what I said?

Didn't I point out that there were some pretty atrocious acts committed by the Allied forces in WWII?

And no, occupation is not fun either. But until the terrorism stops, borders will not be opened. Egypt is just as much a part of the occupation...even more so perhaps since the Gazans used the access through Egypt for most of their goods that they shipped in on the black market.

People should be careful when pointing fingers because sometimes, those fingers point at you too.

I firmly believe that this current conflict is simply going to have to see itself out. If there is a solution, the Arab world is going to have to be instrumental in brokering peace.

It is too bad there is not an Arab leader like Anwar Sadat in the picture. There was a man with vision,who brokered a lasting peace with Israel. Sadly, what did he get for brokering that peace? He was assassinated.

No, what you and others are saying is that civilian deaths are inevitable because Israel is fighting a war, and what I'm saying is that Hamas can just as easily say well we're occupied so it will be inevitable that there'll be civilian casualties, especially since they can't even aim their weapons. I consider a Palestinian and Israeli civilian as equal, but some people here seem to think that Israel can do whatever it wants whether it be settlement building, withholding money, or knocking out power and the Palestinians have no right to fight back but Israel is fully justified to take out anyone if there are rockets in a building. It's a double standard. Agreed about Anwar Sadat.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Whilst Itse's post was full of biased thinking, some of these responses haven't been the greatest. I think Nage's is the only one that actually addressed anything other than attacking/trying to shame posters.

Well said. That post wasn't perfect, and it clearly had a lot of bias involved with it, but there are certain posters here that need to focus on the issue, and not on attacking other posters. This conversation doesn't need more of that.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Rise above it gentlemen...

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by T@T

Really a shame nobody else learned from him, Sadat's policies and peaceful ways made Egypt a popular place to visit for tourism and since his death the economics of the country have gone down hill in a big way.

Crazy fact. he had a brother killed in the Egypt/Israel war.

Let's remember that Sadat had a partner on the Israeli side (Menachem Begin) who negotiated in good faith.

Let's also not forget that the last Israeli leader genuinely interested in peace, Yitzhak Rabin, was assassinated by an Israeli radical 3 years after Begin's death.