Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken
Violence is ugly, but this goes back 11 years.

In the last 3 weeks, more than 1300 palestinians have been killed.

More than the amount of Israeli's killed in the last 15 years.

Originally Posted by Coys1882

The problem with these totals is that it's not like the Palestinians aren't trying. If the Israelis weren't so good at defending their populace the numbers would be similar. It's not like the Israelis become the boogeyman just because they're winning. Do you think a role reversal would be any different? If anything with Hamas behind the wheel it would be worse - see ISIS in Syria for example.

Would people feel better if the number of deaths on each side were even? So should Israel dismantle their Iron Dome and let some Israeli die? because that is what has prevented Israeli deaths not only in this conflict but since it has been enabled. Should Israel encourage the building of more tunnels by Hamas? These last tunnels exited in the regions where the kibbutzim are. Those are farming regions, where Israel does not keep a military presence. Are people naive enough to think that any tunnel that exits in that type of region in Israel is for importing goods other than arms and weapons?

And do people really believe that all of the 1300 Palestinians killed are civilians? Hamas does not wear military fatigues...they wear civilian clothes and walk among the masses. How come Hamas has not released any figure of their casualties?

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Is the UN counting bodies? Or do they get the figure from what Hamas reports to them?

This is the same UN that allows rockets to be stored in their schools, and their schools and hospitals to be used as military posts/launch sites by Hamas?

Consider the media obsession with the body count. According to a daily tally in the New York Times, as of July 27 the war in Gaza had claimed 1,023 Palestinian lives as against 46 Israelis. How does the Times keep such an accurate count of Palestinian deaths? A footnote discloses "Palestinian death tallies are provided by the Palestinian Health Ministry and the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs."

OK. So who runs the Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza? Hamas does. As for the U.N., it gets its data mainly from two Palestinian agitprop NGOs, one of which, the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, offers the remarkably precise statistic that, as of July 27, exactly 82% of deaths in Gaza have been civilians. Curiously, during the 2008-09 Gaza war, the center also reported an 82% civilian casualty rate.

When minutely exact statistics are provided in chaotic circumstances, it suggests the statistics are garbage. When a news organization relies—without clarification—on data provided by a bureaucratic organ of a terrorist organization, there's something wrong there, too.

But let's assume for argument's sake that the numbers are accurate. Does this mean the Palestinians are the chief victims, and Israelis the main victimizers, in the conflict? By this dull logic we might want to rethink the moral equities of World War II, in which over one million German civilians perished at Allied hands compared with just 67,000 British and 12,000 American civilians.

Unfortunately this is behind a paywall.... I can't help that but I'll try to find the other sources. WSJ is calling bull on some of the numbers provided by the UN. Unfortunately its very chaotic on the ground and the third party verification is flaky at best.
Source

[burn_this_city]

Its kind of sad watching Israel and her supporters contort in all sorts of ways to justify the incomparable level of destruction. Now the death toll is suspicious, but even if you took half the palestinian deaths away, Israel has still killed 10 times as many. One trend Ive noticed, a greater porportion of Israel supporters are older. I attributed that to the propaganda fed for decades on US news networks. The last bastion of that is Fox News.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Where does the media get that 1300 figure from?

The lowest reported number is by the ITIC, which is an Israeli organisation tied to the IDF, and their number is just over 1,120. So that would likely be the lowest possible death toll, as the ITIC would be more inclined to under-report Palestinian deaths than over-report (not that they are necessarily guilty of either).

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Is the UN counting bodies? Or do they get the figure from what Hamas reports to them?

This is the same UN that allows rockets to be stored in their schools, and their schools and hospitals to be used as military posts/launch sites by Hamas?

Don't know, The UN "allows" rockets?

[redforever]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Its kind of sad watching Israel and her supporters contort in all sorts of ways to justify the incomparable level of destruction. Now the death toll is suspicious, but even if you took half the palestinian deaths away, Israel has still killed 10 times as many. One trend Ive noticed, a greater porportion of Israel supporters are older. I attributed that to the propaganda fed for decades on US news networks. The last bastion of that is Fox News.

We celebrate Remembrance Day every year and honor our veterans who fought in the World Wars.

And yet, how many deaths were we, the Allies, responsible for in the bombing of Berlin or the bombing of Dresden?

How about how many deaths were we, the Allies, responsible for in the dropping of two atomic bombs in Japan?

And how many of those deaths were innocent civilians?

Every culture and country has a black blot in their history.

Death is the face of war. It is ugly...but that is what it is. And if you look at terrorism with complacent eyes, or try to appease it, you just get more of the same.

Why do you think Hamas wants to capture an IDF soldier so badly?

Maybe because they will use that soldier for negotiating purposes? That is what happened about 5 years ago when Israel negotiated the release of their last captive soldier in return for releasing over 1000 Palestinians. And what did the Palestinians see? That appeasement pays...so let's do it again.

Don't get me wrong. I feel awful for the innocents killed and the innocents still alive coping with that horror. But death, and that includes death of innocents, is the result of any conflict or war.

What is the solution? No clue at the stage things have regressed.

[FlamesAddiction]

I don't doubt the numbers of deaths. I am suspicious on how Hamas translates civilian vs. militant though. They consider all their militants to be civilians and all Israelis to be soldiers.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I don't doubt the numbers of deaths. I am suspicious on how Hamas translates civilian vs. militant though. They consider all their militants to be civilians and all Israelis to be soldiers.

As you seem to be curious about the civilian / Hamas death toll split, can you tell us what ratio you would deem acceptable? I'm really interested to know as it seems to be a very meaningful point.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Its kind of sad watching Israel and her supporters contort in all sorts of ways to justify the incomparable level of destruction. Now the death toll is suspicious, but even if you took half the palestinian deaths away, Israel has still killed 10 times as many.

The body count is being used by a lot of reporters and even commentators to ascribe blame of all of those to Israel while not clarifying the level of defense capabilities (of the 2874 missiles fired on Israel, Iron dome stops 95% of them at great material cost) one side has over the other and completely evading questions about ultimate responsibility for these killings. Questions such as why is Hamas hiding rockets and missiles in UN run schools when by international law you are required distinguish between military and civilian facilities? What does it mean when Hamas turns a UN run hospital into a "de-facto headquarters" and why does Hamas keep on rejecting and, in all four cases, violating cease fires it agreed to? How does Hamas distinguish between militant and civilian numbers? If a civilian stayed in the hospital that has now been converted to military use, it gets attacked, one side gave warning (as per international humanitarian law), the other told them to stay put (in violation of law)... who is to blame for that person's death?

Like I said before, a reasonable person might conclude that Hamas wants the war to continue and is relying on Israeli morality to not attack civilian sites Hamas has converted for military use or lack of Israeli morality to drum up international support with the deaths of it's own people. This does not absolve Israel of wrong doing for these civilian deaths, they are being far far too indiscriminate and I hope one day their leaders are held accountable... but to say it's unjustifiable... It's war

[blankall]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I don't doubt the numbers of deaths. I am suspicious on how Hamas translates civilian vs. militant though. They consider all their militants to be civilians and all Israelis to be soldiers.

The gender gap is always significant.

Civilians are more likely to be women, while almost all combatants are men.

So if you have a death toll where 90+ percent of casualties are men but they are claiming that 70 percent of casualties are civilians, it's suggests something is off.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by blankall

The gender gap is always significant.



Civilians are more likely to be women, while almost all combatants are men.



So if you have a death toll where 90+ percent of casualties are men but they are claiming that 70 percent of casualties are civilians, it's suggests something is off.

For what it's worth, the ITIC numbers indicate a 50/50 split between civilians and militants, so again, 50% would be on the low end of the civilian death counts.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Its kind of sad watching Israel and her supporters contort in all sorts of ways to justify the incomparable level of destruction. Now the death toll is suspicious, but even if you took half the palestinian deaths away, Israel has still killed 10 times as many. One trend Ive noticed, a greater porportion of Israel supporters are older. I attributed that to the propaganda fed for decades on US news networks. The last bastion of that is Fox News.

This is a cop out argument, no more valid than saying, oh, all those supporting the Palestinians are just a bunch of liberalistsand green peacers.

I might be older, but I don't watch Fox, nor do I watch CNN. I read as many sources as I can and form my opinion with the information I gather. I like to think of myself as a social conservative.

Comparing the death count really adds nothing to the argument, other than to say, there is a lot of suffering going on and a lot have died.

And the other thing you have to keep in mind is just because one supports Israel does not mean one does not support the Palestinians as well. It is Hamas or any other terrorist organization that I have no use for.

There have been grievances on both sides, nobody is 100% right or 100% wrong.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

For what it's worth, the ITIC numbers indicate a 50/50 split between civilians and militants, so again, 50% would be on the low end of the civilian death counts.

That's not true. The ITIC has about 350 each of civilians and militants and 400 unknown.

The Palestinian authority themselves report 80 percent of casualties as male.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by blankall

That's not true. The ITIC has about 350 each of civilians and militants and 400 unknown.



The Palestinian authority themselves report 80 percent of casualties as male.

Right, and by my calculations, if of the known casualties you have 50% confirmed militants, and 50% confirmed civilians, that would be.... 50/50.

We can go 30/30 if it makes you feel better, I was just saying the current split between civilians and militants is even.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I don't doubt the numbers of deaths. I am suspicious on how Hamas translates civilian vs. militant though. They consider all their militants to be civilians and all Israelis to be soldiers.

They will call every death a civilian death and refuse to let a third party verify it.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

These pictures are pretty devastating, but I'll undoubtedly feel better once we find out the exact ratio of militant to civilian deaths:

http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2...troops/100784/

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

Right, and by my calculations, if of the known casualties you have 50% confirmed militants, and 50% confirmed civilians, that would be.... 50/50.

We can go 30/30 if it makes you feel better, I was just saying the current split between civilians and militants is even.

They don't indicate a 50/50 split...they indicate a 30/30/40 split...with the vast majority of the extra 40 being military aged males (in this case 16-40).

So for you to say the highest majority of civilians is 50% is inaccurate.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by redforever

We celebrate Remembrance Day every year and honor our veterans who fought in the World Wars.

And yet, how many deaths were we, the Allies, responsible for in the bombing of Berlin or the bombing of Dresden?

How about how many deaths were we, the Allies, responsible for in the dropping of two atomic bombs in Japan?

And how many of those deaths were innocent civilians?

Every culture and country has a black blot in their history.

Death is the face of war. It is ugly...but that is what it is. And if you look at terrorism with complacent eyes, or try to appease it, you just get more of the same.

Why do you think Hamas wants to capture an IDF soldier so badly?

Maybe because they will use that soldier for negotiating purposes? That is what happened about 5 years ago when Israel negotiated the release of their last captive soldier in return for releasing over 1000 Palestinians. And what did the Palestinians see? That appeasement pays...so let's do it again.

Don't get me wrong. I feel awful for the innocents killed and the innocents still alive coping with that horror. But death, and that includes death of innocents, is the result of any conflict or war.

What is the solution? No clue at the stage things have regressed.

Isn't it also true that many people throughout history who were fighting to establish a nation also committed many atrocities that today would be called terrorism, there was a Jewish organization in the 40's called the Irgun who believed that terrorism was justifiable to establish a country.

If you're going to just brush off everything as well war is hell, well occupation is no picnic either.

[AltaGuy]

This latest talking point is beyond ridiculous. Is there someone out there who doesn't think Hamas would massage numbers one way, the IDF another?

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by blankall

They don't indicate a 50/50 split...they indicate a 30/30/40 split

Sure...

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

We can go 30/30 if it makes you feel better, I was just saying the current split between (confirmed) civilians and (confirmed) militants is even.

What else? Oh...

Originally Posted by blankall

with the vast majority of the extra 40 being military aged males (in this case 16-40).

Yeah...

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

if of the known casualties you have 50% confirmed militants, and 50% confirmed civilians...

Because ITIC lists the 40 as "Unknown", and I said "Known"... so... True?

Originally Posted by blankall

So for you to say the highest majority of civilians is 50% is inaccurate.

Oh? Really?

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

...so again, 50% would be on the low end of the civilian death counts.

You can win if you want, since you're so determined not to agree while we say the exact same thing.