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Old 04-22-2011, 10:21 PM   #1541
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Anybody know what the deadline is for the new schedule?
When the Jets left after the 95-96 season; everything was just about done for the end of the 94-95 season. However with the "Save the Jets" campaign they ended up staying an extra year to see if the city/fans could come up with the $100 M to build the new arena. The deadline the NHL set for that year was right around July 1st.

So really, this could drag on for another 2 months before any sort of league deadline needs to be set.
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Old 04-22-2011, 10:30 PM   #1542
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I'll join you, I could totally use some more Aeroplan miles.
On a completely unrelated note, what's with the common signature with you and Bouw? (plus the frowny face on yours)

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Old 04-22-2011, 10:48 PM   #1543
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When the Jets left after the 95-96 season; everything was just about done for the end of the 94-95 season. However with the "Save the Jets" campaign they ended up staying an extra year to see if the city/fans could come up with the $100 M to build the new arena. The deadline the NHL set for that year was right around July 1st.

So really, this could drag on for another 2 months before any sort of league deadline needs to be set.
I heard a rumour that the NHL had two schedules ready last year with either Phoenix or Winnipeg included until the end of last summer. I believe we should have some kind of resolution by August.
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Old 04-22-2011, 10:54 PM   #1544
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It's not just about the schedule tho, the canucks farm team would need relocation. This will be resolved within 2 weeks and public in a month tops. Then all this bickering can end
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Old 04-22-2011, 11:05 PM   #1545
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I'd say that if they are moving, it will be done by the draft. Ether Phoenix or Winnipeg would need time to sell tickets, and while the Moose could be shuttered for a year in the worst case, that would be dramatically unfair to the Canucks and the AHL players under contract in Winnipeg.
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Old 04-22-2011, 11:07 PM   #1546
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On a completely unrelated note, what's with the common signature with you and Bouw? (plus the frowny face on yours)

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Old 04-22-2011, 11:10 PM   #1547
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..... and the AHL players under contract in Winnipeg.
I forgot about that. The Moose have a few players who aren't under contract by the Canucks; right? This could be a nightmare for those guys.
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Old 04-22-2011, 11:19 PM   #1548
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Five players according to the Wikipedia page, but that would represent almost a quarter of the active roster.
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Old 04-23-2011, 02:12 AM   #1549
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From ESPN

Hawks captain Jonathan Toews went back home to Winnipeg and just chilled, for a bit.
"I was in Winnipeg for about a month, month and a half," said Toews. "After a while, I just went down to Minneapolis and trained and skated down there and lived with a friend. Down there, no one knows me, so I just could just relax and sleep and eat and work out and just do the normal simple things I wanted to do. I enjoy going home and obviously it's cool to see everyone that follows your career and everything that is happening in Chicago.

Winnipeg, terrible crap hole, can't imagine any hockey player ever setting foot in the place!

Last edited by afc wimbledon; 04-23-2011 at 02:14 AM.
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Old 04-23-2011, 03:11 AM   #1550
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It's not just about the schedule tho, the canucks farm team would need relocation. This will be resolved within 2 weeks and public in a month tops. Then all this bickering can end
I hear there should be this empty arena in Arizona looking for an occupant.
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Old 04-23-2011, 03:41 AM   #1551
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I hear there should be this empty arena in Arizona looking for an occupant.
That arena was pretty much empty with an occupant.

An NHL occupant at that.
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Old 04-23-2011, 03:47 AM   #1552
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From ESPN

Hawks captain Jonathan Toews went back home to Winnipeg and just chilled, for a bit.
"I was in Winnipeg for about a month, month and a half," said Toews. "After a while, I just went down to Minneapolis and trained and skated down there and lived with a friend. Down there, no one knows me, so I just could just relax and sleep and eat and work out and just do the normal simple things I wanted to do. I enjoy going home and obviously it's cool to see everyone that follows your career and everything that is happening in Chicago.

Winnipeg, terrible crap hole, can't imagine any hockey player ever setting foot in the place!
For more than 1.5 months? Toews probably didn't have anything to do aside from seeing family/old friends/his roots and he didn't like being in the public eye and famous there and so he left after one and half months.
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Old 04-23-2011, 10:37 AM   #1553
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Putting aside all the sniping...



Are you sure about that? It took a lot to convince council to cover this season's losses, and with things dragging out the way they are, I would say that it will become even more difficult to get council to go back to that well a second time.

That, I think, is Winnipeg's best chance. It is already known that the American governors aren't interested in Winnipeg, but if the alternative is that they are looking at their own money being lost because Glendale won't cover, they'll probably choose the lesser evil of having someone else risk their money, even if it is in an undesirable market.
Yes. The Mayor has three councillors in her back pocket who would probably vote for anything. Three other councillors will not vote for the deal. It will be a 4-3 vote.

A better case scenario for Glendale (and could happen two Fridays from now) is that they vote to give $100 million out of their $400 million reserve fund to Hulsizer to complete the deal.
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Old 04-23-2011, 10:57 AM   #1554
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either scenario sounds terrible for the taxpayers. also, how can that 100 million not violate the gift clause? literally just handing over 100 million??
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Old 04-23-2011, 12:06 PM   #1555
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Partly. I also think that they realise that those sports don't have a cultural toehold here, so they know better than to spend millions planting pineapple seeds in the muskeg.
There's also no benefit of coming to Canada, unlike the large upside of expanding into large US markets. An NBA presence in Calgary adds very little to the league in even a best case scenario. The same can't be sad about expansion into a place like Phoenix.
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Old 04-23-2011, 12:08 PM   #1556
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Exactly my point. Hockey never had a toe hold in Atlanta, Florida, Phoenix, or Nashville, so why does the NHL keep dumping millions into these whirlpools? Gary Bettman is spending millions a year of someone elses money to keep from admitting his own mistake. HOCKEY DOES NOT, AND WILL NOT WORK IN THE SUNBELT! Pull up shop, have a dispersal draft, have a 26 team league, and say goodbye to the revenue sharing.
Your lack of understanding of how the NHL works is amazing
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Old 04-23-2011, 12:21 PM   #1557
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I can think of many reasons why I would love to live and work in Phoenix over Winnipeg. That's not really what this is about though. Is Winnipeg a better hockey market than Phoenix? That is the issue. I don't know the answer to that.

I think the business was ran improperly from the start. In the end, I think Phoenix will be a market best re-visited in the future when they actually build an arena closer to the more populated areas. Having an arena out of town when the market is already strong is not a killer, but it sure doesn't help when you are trying to convince people to give the sport a chance.
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Old 04-23-2011, 01:00 PM   #1558
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either scenario sounds terrible for the taxpayers. also, how can that 100 million not violate the gift clause? literally just handing over 100 million??
The city is, in theory, receiving the money back in future income streams through a defined period of time.

Basically, it is consideration up front for equal or better consideration through time.

Goldwater argues the "through time" part may be at risk through over-zealous estimates of parking revenue, which would mean the operator will receive a gift if those revenues fall short.

The city also retains first right to purchase the team or find a buyer for the team - which could include itself - should the operator elect to exit the deal at a future date. I'm trying to remember if that is for a defined price - ala Northlands collosseum versus Peter Pocklington - or a market price. I think Glendale has some price guarantees. If its a pre-defined price they could theoretically buy the team cheaply and sell it elsewhere and pocket the difference.

Normally in a situation like this the city would have simply altered the terms of the original lease to make the payments less onerous and thrown in some other incentives but Goldwater has insisted the stream of payments in the original lease could not be lessened, lest it be a gift.

And that is the solid object everything orbits in trying to move forward and keep the team in the arena.

The city is effectively hiring what they feel would be a competent operator and gaining control of the team even as someone else might be owning it.

Its certainly not as simple as the city handing over $100 million.

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Old 04-23-2011, 02:09 PM   #1559
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The city is, in theory, receiving the money back in future income streams through a defined period of time.

Basically, it is consideration up front for equal or better consideration through time.

Goldwater argues the "through time" part may be at risk through over-zealous estimates of parking revenue, which would mean the operator will receive a gift if those revenues fall short.

The city also retains first right to purchase the team or find a buyer for the team - which could include itself - should the operator elect to exit the deal at a future date. I'm trying to remember if that is for a defined price - ala Northlands collosseum versus Peter Pocklington - or a market price. I think Glendale has some price guarantees. If its a pre-defined price they could theoretically buy the team cheaply and sell it elsewhere and pocket the difference.

Normally in a situation like this the city would have simply altered the terms of the original lease to make the payments less onerous and thrown in some other incentives but Goldwater has insisted the stream of payments in the original lease could not be lessened, lest it be a gift.

And that is the solid object everything orbits in trying to move forward and keep the team in the arena.

The city is effectively hiring what they feel would be a competent operator and gaining control of the team even as someone else might be owning it.

Its certainly not as simple as the city handing over $100 million.

Cowperson
Well it kind of is though, the city is proposing to hire Hulsizer to run the facility for them (at 5 times market rate, I believe they are paying more than Yankee Stadium for managing an arena a quarter the size), Hulsizer will then lease the parking back to the city, even though they already own it. That is basically giving him money.
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Old 04-23-2011, 05:13 PM   #1560
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Well it kind of is though, the city is proposing to hire Hulsizer to run the facility for them (at 5 times market rate, I believe they are paying more than Yankee Stadium for managing an arena a quarter the size), Hulsizer will then lease the parking back to the city, even though they already own it. That is basically giving him money.
. . . . . AND, what are the other details?

Here is the 150 page lease document:

http://www.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/1210glendale_lease.pdf

City raises $100 million in 30 year bonds. City gives this money to Hulsizer.

Hulsizer gets $100 million up front and between $10 million and $20 million per annum for five years in cash payments for operating the Arena.

Hulsizer basically gives the NHL all of the money he gets from the city, including up front and in the first five years, making up the $170 million purchase price.

In return, Hulsizer guarantees the city the Coyotes stay in the arena for 23 years, the term of Glendales remaining financing for the arena, ensuring their fee/revenue streams to cover the arena financing remain intact. Hulsizer may own the team but he can't take it anywhere. The only thing he can do is sell it to another operator who is bound by the terms of the lease.

Hulsizer or whomever owns the team absorbs operating losses or enjoys operating profits through the term of the lease.

City gets up to $6 million per year in rent and fees from Hulsizer or any other operator through the term of the lease or as much as $180 million through 30 years.

City gets $25 million back from Hulsizer it put up front to guarantee losses in 2010-11 and Hulsizer gives a personal guarantee for $75 million of the bond issue.

City gets parking rights and naming rights for all events at the venue, not just the Coyotes. The value of this is in dispute but the lowest estimate from three consultants was between $60 million and $80 million through the life of the deal.

City incurs interest costs of borrowing for the term of the lease but say its $6 million per annum or $180 million.

At the end of 5.5 years, city can sell the Arena to the operator for a price up to $130 million or anyone else if the operator refuses or negotiate another agreement with the operator to operate the arena.

At the end of the lease in 30 years, the city can "put" the arena to the operator for $40 million, which would include parking rights. Basically, this ensures the city is getting at least $40 million from the arena at the end of term.

So, it looks like $170 million going out in five years.

It looks like the normal payments of $180 million for the bond issue are offset by the $180 million the operator would normally pay in fees.

It looks like there is $60 million to $80 million coming in from parking and naming rights, a number Goldwater disputes, while $100 million will be owed on the bonds at term.

It looks like the city is guaranteed at least $40 million for the arena at the end of term and could sell it for as much as $130 million before then.

Cost of debt on the arena and the bond is fixed and never changes. Parking and naming rights revenue could inflate through time, helping the city.

Not known above is whether or not there would be further cost to have someone operate the arena after 5.5 years.

If the operator wanted to leave Phoenix, would he be willing to pay Glendale a cost to sever the lease? Probably. Glendales asking price would probably depend on how much more Arena payments it has to make. It has to.

So, lots going out but also lots coming in. No, its not as simple as giving a guy $100 million.

Does it even out for Glendale? Is Goldwater right? There's some room for opinion but for them to say a "gift" probably takes a lot of balls.

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