^^ Dube will never be "found innocent". He could be found not guilty. But even if he is, I haven't seen anywhere where he could "recoup a lot of money". Even if someone said, "yeah he's a rapist" and he gets acquitted, he can't win that lawsuit. Kyle Rittenhouse made threats to sue people who called him a murderer and the analysis by most defamation lawyers is that you can still say that if it's legit your opinion. You are simply disagreeing with the verdict and saying what you think he is.
And I don't think he can sue a team if they terminate his contract prematurely. That's collective bargaining - it has to be done through a union grievance. That's part of the bargain you make being in a union.
Right, poor choice of words with the innocent thing. I was trying to imply how some people get found not guilty by a technicality, or having the case dismissed. For instance, Bill Cosby walks around the world free as a bird but everyone knows he is a rapist. Sometimes someone goes through a trial, and the world believes in his innocence, like Johnny Depp (where most of the world anyway). That's what my non-lawyer speak meant by innocent and really innocent.
I think I understand now the distinction. If I called Dube a rapist before he was charged, then this could be construed as libel, and he would be able to sue me, correct? Or slander, which is not a criminal offence, but he could sue me for, let's say, a sponsor dropping him, causing him to lose money. However, this no longer applies as libel has "without legal justification" - so that threshold is met when he is formally charged? So I can at present say: "Dube is a rapist", and there is no reasonable grounds for legal or civil action?
Good to know these things. I have been trying to exercise caution in my posts. Now I can call him a rapist with reckless abandon. Innocent until proven guilty... but with reckless abandon. Thanks for the info!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GFG#1
Personally, I believe if the Bettman doesn't come out on the 5th/6th at the latest suspending all of the players indefinitely, they Flames should come out and terminate Dubes Contract. He has about 1.2 million remaining to be paid out, and I am no lawyer, but I am pretty sure the most he could sue for would be the 1.2 mil still owing. Dube is not owed anything past his existing contract. He is not guaranteed to be given a QO.
Do the right thing and terminate the contract. If your wrong and he is acquitted of all charges and allowed to resume his career someone else can sign him after his multi year hiatus. It is highly unlikely that charges get dropped before the end of this season, so his contract would be up anyhow.
Even if the Flames were to terminate his contract but pay him the remaining balance to avoid any litigation in the future. I would hate to see him get any more money paid to him, if he is guilty, but just the optics of them being willing to cut him loose from the start would go along way.
The league is not going to do or say anything until they have time to hear and digest whatever it is the London Police say next Monday
Then, and only then (and after lots of consultation with their legal staff), will they make any kind of decision on what are currently valid SPC's.
They have to dot their I's and cross their T's before any announcement.
I would suspect that all the teams have been informed of such as well.
No need to rush things with all these guys on LOA.
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Sure it's possible that Jake Bean kind of knew what happened, young people not being able to keep their mouth shut, although if this was as bad as everyone feared, they may have just kept their mouth shut. And it's also possible that when this all came out, his dad sat down with him and asked him if he knew anything.
But we're probably never going to know that, and if that did happen, it pales in comparison to what actually happened in that room, which should be the focus for now, imo.
This is relevant how? Jake Bean isn't being charged. What do you think happened – something like this?
Jake Bean: ‘Hey, Dad, how's it going? A bunch of my teammates just told me they gang-raped this girl, because of course they would tell me that, and I thought you should know, because of course I'm gonna pass that on to my family.’
John Bean: ‘Good to know, son. Years from now, when Ken King drops dead and I'm promoted to his job, I'll make sure to cover up that story when one of your teammates just happens to be playing for my team.’
I don't think so.
LMAO because I read this like a Drunk History re-enactment.
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So from a legal perspective, there were two police investigations after the incident that could not find grounds to recommend the Crown press charges, plus one private investigation that was inconclusive from lack of evidence (the accuser refused to participate). At that point, as far Hockey Canada was concerned, there was no crime committed and they offered a private settlement in exchange of an NDA. Since an NDA cannot be used to cover-up a crime, can it be asserted in court that the NDA is a contract agreeing between the parties that no crime occurred?
I understand that the victim at that point may have just had no faith that there was any other path for justice, or was under duress to sign it. I am just wondering if it has any legal bearing at all or can be used as evidence against her.
The NDA is not likely to be evidence of anything. It will contain non-admissions of wrongdoing. I don't know criminal procedure but I'd be very surprised if it were even admissible.
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Right, poor choice of words with the innocent thing. I was trying to imply how some people get found not guilty by a technicality, or having the case dismissed. For instance, Bill Cosby walks around the world free as a bird but everyone knows he is a rapist. Sometimes someone goes through a trial, and the world believes in his innocence, like Johnny Depp (where most of the world anyway). That's what my non-lawyer speak meant by innocent and really innocent.
I think I understand now the distinction. If I called Dube a rapist before he was charged, then this could be construed as libel, and he would be able to sue me, correct? Or slander, which is not a criminal offence, but he could sue me for, let's say, a sponsor dropping him, causing him to lose money. However, this no longer applies as libel has "without legal justification" - so that threshold is met when he is formally charged? So I can at present say: "Dube is a rapist", and there is no reasonable grounds for legal or civil action?
Good to know these things. I have been trying to exercise caution in my posts. Now I can call him a rapist with reckless abandon. Innocent until proven guilty... but with reckless abandon. Thanks for the info!
If you say you believe he is a rapist (and you honestly believe that and have reason to do so), that's an opinion. I doubt it's actionable. But I suppose there's always somone willing to take on that kind of a case.
Dube/agent: I need to take a personal leave of absence - it's for mental health reasons.
Flames: OK, what do you want us to say?
Dube/agent: Just what I said is fine.
I imagine the Kylington conversation went the same way except what Kylington wanted them to say back then is what they released back then.
To think it's any more than that you have to decide that the Flames have lied ion their recent press release. Remember the timing wasbefore the announcement that 5 arrests were going to be made. So assumptions and speculation aside, all the Flames had was general knowledge that Dube, and a bunch of other people, were on the WJC team and attended the event and that he'd denied any wrongdoing like a bunch of other players.
Agree with everything you said but would add that the league and the police both did investigations that came to nothing as well. It would make sense the Flames would rely on those.
Nope. As a lawyer I would never say my client "maintains innocence" unless he tells me he didn't do the crime. A plea of "not guilty" and saying "I'm innocent" are two different things.
Saying you are innocent is 100% casting aspersions on the allegations. Or at least a major component of them (I think almost all of the important facts except one will be uncontested).
Maybe it's all semantics, but I also see declaring innocence different than calling the allegations completely false in the sense that saying the allegations are false basically accuses the person of lying. Saying you are innocent can be massaged in way that is softer and puts less shade on the alleged victim.
That is Gio's point I believe. Saying you are not guilty is more of a 'technicality'. Saying you are INNOCENT is very much calling the accuser a liar.
... Hockey Canada paid hush-money to cover everything up...
I don't like this characterization of the settlement. Viewing it from the victims perspective it is compensation, as much as money can make her whole, for the horrendous situation Hockey Canada and everyone that was involved put her in. By calling it hush money it makes it sound like it is odious on her part, a la Stormy Davis and Trump. "Please don't say anything and we will pay you." That is hush money.
This is deserved compensation paid to a victim by her transgressors and which both parties agreed to.
I think it is fair to examine Hockey Canada's role in all of this and should be done but not at the expense of the victim.
I don't like this characterization of the settlement. Viewing it from the victims perspective it is compensation, as much as money can make her whole, for the horrendous situation Hockey Canada and everyone that was involved put her in. By calling it hush money it makes it sound like it is odious on her part, a la Stormy Davis and Trump. "Please don't say anything and we will pay you." That is hush money.
This is deserved compensation paid to a victim by her transgressors and which both parties agreed to.
I think it is fair to examine Hockey Canada's role in all of this and should be done but not at the expense of the victim.
Dude...its been 6 years. What do you think happened? Why do you think London PD just...'wrapped it up?'
She was paid for silence.
Sure, maybe some of it was 'compensation' but at the end of the day? It was silence.
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So I can at present say: "Dube is a rapist", and there is no reasonable grounds for legal or civil action?
...
You still can't (technically, ) say he is a rapist if you are trying to be accurate. He has been charged with sexual assault. He has not been convicted.
You could say, "based on the fact he was charged I believe he probably did it" and be technically okay.
In reality what you say probably doesn't matter unless you care to be accurate when you talk. I doubt anyone is suing you. Media companies and high profile reporters are another case.
Dude...its been 6 years. What do you think happened? Why do you think London PD just...'wrapped it up?'
She was paid for silence.
Sure, maybe some of it was 'compensation' but at the end of the day? It was silence.
Why Hockey Canada paid it? I agree. That is what they got for her dollars.
She has a lifetime of therapy to pay for, among many other tangible and intangible damages. That is compensation.
I am no better able to say why LPD wrapped it up than you are. It is despicable. Hockey Canada should have come out with it and called the police and offered all of their support in the investigation. If that did not happen.
Both suck.
None of that changes the fact she is entitled to compensation for the damages she suffered, regardless of why the other side paid it.
In a sense it is no different than if she was in a car accident and the other party was negligent. They have to compensate her. Is that hush money?
My point is that we all need to separate the parties here. HC, LPD, the 5? All SUCK. The victim? Assuming what we know is true, she is not party to a hush money scheme. She was compensated and part of that is for an NDA. That is incredibly common. I will grant you that 5% of the payment could be characterized as buying silence but that is standard in the process and not unique here.
thus endeth the white knighting.
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Why Hockey Canada paid it? I agree. That is what they got for her dollars.
She has a lifetime of therapy to pay for, among many other tangible and intangible damages. That is compensation.
I am no better able to say why LPD wrapped it up than you are. It is despicable. Hockey Canada should have come out with it and called the police and offered all of their support in the investigation. If that did not happen.
Both suck.
None of that changes the fact she is entitled to compensation for the damages she suffered, regardless of why the other side paid it.
In a sense it is no different than if she was in a car accident and the other party was negligent. They have to compensate her. Is that hush money?
My point is that we all need to separate the parties here. HC, LPD, the 5? All SUCK. The victim? Assuming what we know is true, she is not party to a hush money scheme. She was compensated and part of that is for an NDA. That is incredibly common. I will grant you that 5% of the payment could be characterized as buying silence but that is standard in the process and not unique here.
thus endeth the white knighting.
No argument from me. I'm not going to defend any of those sick bastards.
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One thing that I can't ignore is the vision of Formenton opening the door, and 7 guys holding golf clubs enter the room, with a naked and vulnerable woman laying on the bed. Now, assuming this is true (which I imagine it to be at this point, but I guess we will see), and if Dube was one of these players, then I hope he rots in hell, really. That right there is enough for me to understand his motives and intentions - everyone's motives and intentions.
.....
I am 80% sure Alex Formenton isnt player 1 who she went home with. I dont think he was at the bar that night. He was underage and I remember reading somewhere they didnt let the underage hockey players in.
I always thought the golf clubs were already in the room, its much creepier if they brought them too.
I could be wrong on this though. I will see if I can find it.
The news is just supposed to be the news. Here's what happened, now you're free process that information however you'd like.
...
So now we have multiple generations who aren't just being told what's happening, they're also being told what to think/feel about it and how to process/react to it.
The news business has never been just "news." Opinion pages with comment and editorials are as old as newspapers. To this day, we still have editorials at election time that endorse one party over another. It's a weird relic where newspapers owners/executives still try to wield influence over people and politics.
But I totally agree about the degradation of the news business, 24/7 talking heads that dumb down issues, rock-bottom quality, and social media echo chambers that make constructive discourse impossible. And it's only getting worse.
