I do my best to keep an open mind on things. I have had friends falsely accused of things (not anything like this, however!), and the truth came out long before charges, thankfully.
If I were a betting man, than at least these 5 are probably guilty, with 3 more players who are probably guilty but never charged (yet).
One thing that I can't ignore is the vision of Formenton opening the door, and 7 guys holding golf clubs enter the room, with a naked and vulnerable woman laying on the bed. Now, assuming this is true (which I imagine it to be at this point, but I guess we will see), and if Dube was one of these players, then I hope he rots in hell, really. That right there is enough for me to understand his motives and intentions - everyone's motives and intentions.
Maybe Dube was simply the guy coming for pizza, joined the room, left after 10 mins. That's easier to forgive, and if he has been the one cooperating with the investigators, and if it was his testimony that led to charges finally being laid, then he becomes easier to forgive.
I expect that there will be many different layers of guilt, of blame, and of actions. That's why I am keeping an open mind at least until the trail gets underway. I have no clue how guilty anyone is or isn't, and what are the details. It sounds like to me that there should be 3 others charged, and if they are a part of this, I hope that enough evidence will be released so that everyone gets convicted.
The one thing that makes me look at Dube in a much worse light and hedge my bets on him coming out of this as anything other than a rapist is the fact that there were 8 players in total, but they are only charging 5 (at this time at least). For me, that sounds like: "Enough evidence to charge 5 for sure, and the other 3 may not hold up in court."
As for the Flames, I don't blame them for handling things the way they did. They probably should - in hindsight - held back from publishing the original Dube statement. However, if Dube goes up to them and says: "Listen, I need time off since I am going crazy with stress and anxiety." What else would they do? For me, it depends on what Dube said - it was initiated by Dube, so did he say: "Hey, I am getting charged with rape, so what can we say about my absence?" Probably not. Flames probably knew what was going on with him, but you are still innocent until proven guilty.
We as the general public are more or less free to feel and say things that likely don't get us punished (to an extent - if Dube is found innocent, he can recoup a lot of money with what people are saying about him! lol), but a business doesn't have that luxury.
Remember Peters? How did the Flames legally get out of his contract? They negotiated a settlement. Peters still walked away with a portion (no idea how sizeable it was - 1/4? half? All of it? All of it and then some?). Flames didn't simply terminate him. What makes people assume that Dube can be terminated right now? There is still a chance that he is found innocent (whether he is 'really' innocent, or there just wasn't enough evidence to convict, or something lets him off). Flames would immediately open themselves to a potential lawsuit.
The trail won't happen until Dube's contract runs out. What I would like to see from the Flames is for them to simply not qualify him and not retain his rights (unlike Ottawa with Formenton). If he is acquitted of all charges, well, let him find a different place to play and have that organization deal with it. He is going to be a KHL star, by my guess, if he doesn't end up in jail.
That's the only legal thing (that I know of) that the Flames can do. This is an accusation followed up with formal charges. Unless there is a specific clause in his contract for charges regardless of outcome (i can't imagine there would be), then the organization has their hands tied and need to tread lightly between appeasing the general public as well as not giving Dube an avenue to turn around later and sue the Flames.
That's how I see things anyway. I am still not going to call these players 'guilty' until they are found guilty, but from where I stand, I assume that they are. I mind will be made up as court unfolds, and we hear or are privy to the evidence presented. Then I will really make my mind from "I think" to "I am confident", and then there is the outcome which I will either agree with or disagree with depending on how my mind processed the evidence. Sounds like it is going to be a long ways away.
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I thought the other 3 players involved were just CHL players that weren't on the WJ team so maybe the 3 others will be charged but aren't as high profile..?
Right. Okay. Just because...my understanding is the girl took the money and signed the deal and appears to have abided by it, but the Government can still bring charges?
Her taking the money and signing an NDA would be in respect of her private law rights (i.e., tort) against Hockey Canada, and possibly the individuals involved, though it's typical to go after deeper-pocketed organizations rather than individuals. This case is somewhat unusual in that the accused also have money, but I'm not sure if that was as true at the time.
So she can no longer bring a private suit for damages against anyone she settled with, but the Crown is different. The settlement has nothing to do with the Crown and its ability/desire to bring charges. (I'm starting to step out of my realm of expertise here so please correct me if I'm wrong on the following.) She can't settle on behalf of the Crown, nor does she make the decision on whether to prosecute. She can decline to cooperate with the investigation/trial, which would seriously affect whether the Crown can or would proceed, but she doesn't make the call.
^^ Dube will never be "found innocent". He could be found not guilty. But even if he is, I haven't seen anywhere where he could "recoup a lot of money". Even if someone said, "yeah he's a rapist" and he gets acquitted, he can't win that lawsuit. Kyle Rittenhouse made threats to sue people who called him a murderer and the analysis by most defamation lawyers is that you can still say that if it's legit your opinion. You are simply disagreeing with the verdict and saying what you think he is.
And I don't think he can sue a team if they terminate his contract prematurely. That's collective bargaining - it has to be done through a union grievance. That's part of the bargain you make being in a union.
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Her taking the money and signing an NDA would be in respect of her private law rights (i.e., tort) against Hockey Canada, and possibly the individuals involved, though it's typical to go after deeper-pocketed organizations rather than individuals. This case is somewhat unusual in that the accused also have money, but I'm not sure if that was as true at the time.
So she can no longer bring a private suit for damages against anyone she settled with, but the Crown is different. The settlement has nothing to do with the Crown and its ability/desire to bring charges. (I'm starting to step out of my realm of expertise here so please correct me if I'm wrong on the following.) She can't settle on behalf of the Crown, nor does she make the decision on whether to prosecute. She can decline to cooperate with the investigation/trial, which would seriously affect whether the Crown can or would proceed, but she doesn't make the call.
This is correct, and I read somewhere that she is cooperating and will give evidence. Also, pretty much every NDA has a carveout for giving the otherwise confidential information under court process.
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It is really important that it's clear when a piece is reporting and when a piece is an opinion column. In traditional media, this was always very important and something that was upheld.
But in the world of social media and the decline in actual journalism, it's become very blurry, to everyone's decrement.
This.
The news is just supposed to be the news. Here's what happened, now you're free process that information however you'd like.
Then along came 24hr news channels, and program directors trying to find way to get more eyes for more commercials during more timeslots. Turns out people like drama, and people like reality TV... soooo let's combine the news (reality) with drama (here's a very dramatic discussion panel about the news we just showed you).
So now we have multiple generations who aren't just being told what's happening, they're also being told what to think/feel about it and how to process/react to it.
Shifting from Walter Cronkite to Tucker Carlson made networks a lot more money from advertisers, but it's not like the world is better from it.
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Her taking the money and signing an NDA would be in respect of her private law rights (i.e., tort) against Hockey Canada, and possibly the individuals involved, though it's typical to go after deeper-pocketed organizations rather than individuals. This case is somewhat unusual in that the accused also have money, but I'm not sure if that was as true at the time.
So she can no longer bring a private suit for damages against anyone she settled with, but the Crown is different. The settlement has nothing to do with the Crown and its ability/desire to bring charges. (I'm starting to step out of my realm of expertise here so please correct me if I'm wrong on the following.) She can't settle on behalf of the Crown, nor does she make the decision on whether to prosecute. She can decline to cooperate with the investigation/trial, which would seriously affect whether the Crown can or would proceed, but she doesn't make the call.
So from a legal perspective, there were two police investigations after the incident that could not find grounds to recommend the Crown press charges, plus one private investigation that was inconclusive from lack of evidence (the accuser refused to participate). At that point, as far Hockey Canada was concerned, there was no crime committed and they offered a private settlement in exchange of an NDA. Since an NDA cannot be used to cover-up a crime, can it be asserted in court that the NDA is a contract agreeing between the parties that no crime occurred?
I understand that the victim at that point may have just had no faith that there was any other path for justice, or was under duress to sign it. I am just wondering if it has any legal bearing at all or can be used as evidence against her.
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As a fan of the team, it really sucks that the Flames are tied to this grotesque event. Whether we like or not, every new article about the trial for the next 2-3 years is going to reference the Calgary Flames. I’m having a hard time discussing/explaining it to my kids. They see the twitter outrage and it’s just one more thing - in a long line of things - that is pulling them away from being Flames fans.
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As a fan of the team, it really sucks that the Flames are tied to this grotesque event. Whether we like or not, every new article about the trial for the next 2-3 years is going to reference the Calgary Flames. I’m having a hard time discussing/explaining it to my kids. They see the twitter outrage and it’s just one more thing - in a long line of things - that is pulling them away from being Flames fans.
I'm guessing the lack of playoff success is what 96.5% of it though right?
The Flames drafted a player that made a huge (criminal) mistake. The only reference to the Flames in all of this is where Dube played.
The Flames didn't actively pursue sexual deviants on a list right after hockey IQ, and foot speed.
As a fan of the team, it really sucks that the Flames are tied to this grotesque event. Whether we like or not, every new article about the trial for the next 2-3 years is going to reference the Calgary Flames. I’m having a hard time discussing/explaining it to my kids. They see the twitter outrage and it’s just one more thing - in a long line of things - that is pulling them away from being Flames fans.
meanwhile the Oilers are praised for Perry, Kane, Kassian, Bob Nicholson
To think it's any more than that you have to decide that the Flames have lied ion their recent press release. Remember the timing wasbefore the announcement that 5 arrests were going to be made. So assumptions and speculation aside, all the Flames had was general knowledge that Dube, and a bunch of other people, were on the WJC team and attended the event and that he'd denied any wrongdoing like a bunch of other players.
Except the Flames CEO is Jake Bean's dad, and Jake played on that team with Dube and the rest.
Seems pretty impossible that the Flames front office doesn't know a lot more of the details than the general public. People have been speculating for months about when the results of the investigation would come out. Surely there is no way the Flames org was blindsided by this.
Now, this may just come down to poor choice of words by whoever is the communications staff who may or may not have been given proper info from management, but when this whole scandal is about rotten hockey culture and the subsequent cover ups, its not surprising that the original Dube statement is being talked about.
I'm happy to wait until 2026. Ensures it effectively kills their hockey careers by making them unemployable for 2-3 years.
I think their careers are already dead, no matter if it's earlier than 2026 or not ... not even the Oilers would touch this PR nightmare with a ten ft pole. Too bad that some of those players have already made millions in the NHL, but I highly doubt we'll see any of them on NHL ice again. They might be able to play in Sibiria, but that should be about it.
As a fan of the team, it really sucks that the Flames are tied to this grotesque event. Whether we like or not, every new article about the trial for the next 2-3 years is going to reference the Calgary Flames. I’m having a hard time discussing/explaining it to my kids. They see the twitter outrage and it’s just one more thing - in a long line of things - that is pulling them away from being Flames fans.
In a sense thats true, but the Flames really have nothing at all to do with it.
Its not their fault that Hockey Canada paid hush-money to cover everything up. Its not their fault that Dube did whatever it is he did. Its not their fault that they didnt know about it and its not their fault that Dube came to them with 'Mental Health anguish' days before being charged.
Dube has to be responsible for Dube. The Calgary Flames are not his Mother.
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Except the Flames CEO is Jake Bean's dad, and Jake played on that team with Dube and the rest.
Seems pretty impossible that the Flames front office doesn't know a lot more of the details than the general public. People have been speculating for months about when the results of the investigation would come out. Surely there is no way the Flames org was blindsided by this.
Now, this may just come down to poor choice of words by whoever is the communications staff who may or may not have been given proper info from management, but when this whole scandal is about rotten hockey culture and the subsequent cover ups, its not surprising that the original Dube statement is being talked about.
until the Oilers sign one of these players and it's all about 2nd chances
Except the Flames CEO is Jake Bean's dad, and Jake played on that team with Dube and the rest.
This is relevant how? Jake Bean isn't being charged. What do you think happened – something like this?
Jake Bean: ‘Hey, Dad, how's it going? A bunch of my teammates just told me they gang-raped this girl, because of course they would tell me that, and I thought you should know, because of course I'm gonna pass that on to my family.’
John Bean: ‘Good to know, son. Years from now, when Ken King drops dead and I'm promoted to his job, I'll make sure to cover up that story when one of your teammates just happens to be playing for my team.’
I don't think so.
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Personally, I believe if the Bettman doesn't come out on the 5th/6th at the latest suspending all of the players indefinitely, they Flames should come out and terminate Dubes Contract. He has about 1.2 million remaining to be paid out, and I am no lawyer, but I am pretty sure the most he could sue for would be the 1.2 mil still owing. Dube is not owed anything past his existing contract. He is not guaranteed to be given a QO.
Do the right thing and terminate the contract. If your wrong and he is acquitted of all charges and allowed to resume his career someone else can sign him after his multi year hiatus. It is highly unlikely that charges get dropped before the end of this season, so his contract would be up anyhow.
Even if the Flames were to terminate his contract but pay him the remaining balance to avoid any litigation in the future. I would hate to see him get any more money paid to him, if he is guilty, but just the optics of them being willing to cut him loose from the start would go along way.
