[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[Vox]

Originally Posted by Itse

True, not saying it can't happen, but the odds of that happening drop rapidly year by year. So yeah, I think that last 82 games makes a huge difference.

The guys that have those breakout have usually consistently shown signs of more. That's MacKinnon for you.

Lindholm doesn't look like a guy about to break out. No one in Carolina seems to think that, and I didn't see that in the Carolina games I watched. (I watched some for Teräväinen and Aho, two top Finnish players.)

I think it's obvious Lindholm should improve some, he's still at an age where that happens especially for centers. But a significant offensive bump just isn't very likely.

Possible exception is that his previous coach in Carolina seems to think he has more to offer.

[1991 Canadian]

@ 868904

Your point about Hamilton's depressive effect on Gio's production is why I am most excited about this deal. The Flames were forced to shelter Hamilton by playing him with Gio and minimizing his defensive liability. I don't Hamilton utilized Gio nearly as well as Brodie did in the offensive zone.

Gio elevated Hamilton's game, but I don't think it was mutually beneficial. Gio-Brodie benefited both players.

The table below is from data from https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/...es=2017-2018:R

There is a very clear trend. Giordano's offensive zone starts have been increasing with Hamilton, and yet his point production has gone down. People love to point out the great CF% stats that Gio-Hamilton have, but I would argue they are not nearly as effective as generating offense.

Table: Giordano's Stats and the Impact of his defensive partners

Year		5 on 5 SH%	Off. Zone Start %	PTS/60		CF%		Gio's Main Partner
2017-18		6.58		53.5			1.1		57.63		81% Hamilton
2016-17		8.44		48.97			1.2		54.11		72% Hamilton
2015-16		8.5		46.91			1.7		50.24		61% Brodie
2014-15		8.77		42.68			1.9		48.36		85% Brodie
2013-14		8.35		43.01			1.7		53.41		69% Brodie

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

In some ways yes and in some ways no. Their draft position is referred to because it helps us realize their upside and potential. Hanifin was drafted top 5 as a future stud dman. He still holds that potential. Referring to him as a former top 5 pick is an easy way to refer to that potential. But if that line of thinking offends you then refer to Hanifin as a future stud dman and Lindholm as a young blossoming top 6 C/RW. These two players are not busts. They were drafted extremely high for many reasons and those reasons have not evaporated or disappeared. They had massive potential when drafted and they still have that potential. So their draft position definitely has some relevance to their upside, potential and to their trade value.

His draft slot has nothing to do with him still holding that potential. His age and improvement year over year have everything to do with that potential. They were picked where they were picked because people felt they had that potential in their draft year, and now you can take their play in the league and determine if they still hold that potential completely independent of where they were drafted.

Draft pedigree has value before the player has played a significant amount of games in the league. It applies to neither of these guys at this point, only results and growth do. One is growing, one really isn't, and him being picked 5th overall 5 years ago really does nothing to add to what he's worth. At least I sure hope it doesn't to our management team.

[bigrangy]

Hamilton didn't suppress Gio, GG's useless system suppressed Gio.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Itse

True, not saying it can't happen, but the odds of that happening drop rapidly year by year. So yeah, I think that last 82 games makes a huge difference.

The guys that have those breakout have usually consistently shown signs of more. That's MacKinnon for you.

Lindholm doesn't look like a guy about to break out. No one in Carolina seems to think that, and I didn't see that in the Carolina games I watched. (I watched some for Teräväinen and Aho, two top Finnish players.)

I think it's obvious Lindholm should improve some, he's still at an age where that happens especially for centers. But a significant offensive bump just isn't very likely.

Henrik Sedin didn't breakout offensively until after his 6th season after being drafted.

Henrik Zetterberg didn't breakout offensively until his 6th season after being drafted (and that was in the SEL due to NHL lockout).

I shouldn't need to detail Backlund's development to Flames fans.

It's not uncommon for two way Swedish centres to take longer to produce offensively. Even without producing offensively, these are usually still very useful players contributing in other facets of the game.

[Bingo Jr.]

Flames will be big winners in 3-4 years now question. Dougie’s prime years are just gonna be wasted in a floundering Canes organization, whilst Lindholm and hanifin fit in perfectly with our young core. On top of that, Fox did not want to sign in calgary and Ferland has had difficulties over the years dealing with consistency. Calgary big winners here.

[mdubz]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

Hamilton didn't suppress Gio, GG's useless system suppressed Gio.

His system was the reason Hamilton wouldn't go into corners to help retrieve pucks and make Gio do all the heavy lifting?

[TheIronMaiden]

I don't have a strong opinion on the trade. Time will tell if it is the right deal. Good players went ways.

An interesting aspect of this trade that no one has really touched upon is the difference in penalty minutes. We know that the Flames were one of the worst penalised teams last year.

Hamilton and Ferland combined for 88 Pim.
Lindholm and Hanafin combined for 39.

I know this is a small thing. But better deciplin would really help this team next year.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by New Era

All the arguing back and forth about whether the Flames got the better players really is irrelevant. I like the players that we got back, but they really don’t change the make up of the hockey team or address weakness. The problem that faced the team was a need to get another top six forward that was a proven scorer. Mission NOT accomplished. This was a lateral move in the big picture and did not address the pressing need of the hockey team.

Treliving continues to be very slow at addressing the significant holes in the organization. He loves the big glitzy trades, but he doesn’t address the major needs of the hockey team. We are still without a top RW, a proven scorer, and a long term solution between the pipes. All of these are the problems that faced this team from day one for Treliving, but he has yet to find a way to address the needs. Pretty sad considering the number of high draft picks and assets he’s burned through.

This trade wasn't about addressing the need for a goal scorer, it was about addressing an issue with the team, and rebalancing the lineup.

There is still every bit as much room to add a goal scorer as there was before.

Plus, the team is younger, faster and more talented.

Plus, the idea, coming out of a rebuild, is to have a young core that can grow and develop together. This core just got more well-rounded IMO, and now has more room for growth than it had before the trade.

You don't have to solve EVERY problem the team had in one trade.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

This trade wasn't about addressing the need for a goal scorer, it was about addressing an issue with the team, and rebalancing the lineup.

There is still every bit as much room to add a goal scorer as there was before.

Plus, the team is younger, faster and more talented.

Plus, the idea, coming out of a rebuild, is to have a young core that can grow and develop together. This core just got more well-rounded IMO, and now has more room for growth than it had before the trade.

You don't have to solve EVERY problem the team had in one trade.

I agree with your sentiment, and there’s more to this trade than simply filling the goal scoring need. And while I do agree there is still room to do something else, I think we are kidding ourselves if we think BT wasn’t also trying to solve that major hole with this move. You don’t give up the assets he did if he doesn’t think Lindholm can likely be the solution on our top 6 need.

Yes this was also made to address whatever locker room or intangibles the team might need, yes it was made to get younger, yes there are favourable contract outcomes, but BT didn’t give up our most desirable D-man from a trading chip perspective if also doesn’t think he likely addresed our RW issue too. Time will tell.

[BrownDrake]

Lindholm has been getting second line minutes and on the second power play unit. Over the past 3 seasons he has 17 less points than Backlund has playing 10 less games. IMO he has had worse line mates than Backlund over that period. He is 6 years younger than Backlund.

I am really happy we got Lindholm, I can’t see how he doesn’t become a 60 Point winger playing on our first line and getting more power play time.

[Jaydee]

Never liked Hamilton. Guy might have the lowest hockey IQ in the league. Addition by subtraction imo

[Gaudreau is a Ninja]

Maybe if AC would be willing to make a highlights video of both Hanivin and Lindholm we all can feel better. I'm excited about the trade already but maybe a couple of AC quality videos would make the rest feel a little better😊🍻

Please AC👍

[ignite09]

Originally Posted by Jaydee

Never liked Hamilton. Guy might have the lowest hockey IQ in the league. Addition by subtraction imo

[ignite09]

Hoping the next move Treliving makes doesn't require 90% of the fan base ####ting all over the guys leaving necessary just to justify the trade.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Jaydee

Never liked Hamilton. Guy might have the lowest hockey IQ in the league. Addition by subtraction imo

I have already said that I think this was a smart trade. I like both players coming in, I live the contract control, and I think it provides a lot more balance to the whole lineup.

However, posts like this are nonsense. Dougie Hamilton does not have a low hockey IQ, and he is not by any stretch a bad defenseman. He is an excellent player, and a BIG price to pay with Ferland and Fox for Hanifin and Lindholm.

[Vinny01]

Loving this trade even more the second day.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Gaudreau is a Ninja

Maybe if AC would be willing to make a highlights video of both Hanivin and Lindholm we all can feel better. I'm excited about the trade already but maybe a couple of AC quality videos would make the rest feel a little better😊🍻

Please AC👍

Unless I'm mistaken, AC archives all of the Flames' games so he can make the videos at the end of the year but he does not archive games for other teams.

[Bourque's Twin]

Hamilton doesn’t strike me as a guy who wins you cups. He has all the tools but no toolbox. I don’t think his compete is where it needs to be, and he’s so soft for his size. I’m really happy the Flames bit the bullet and moved on. It’s not easy trading a mid 20’s D Man who just led the league in goals. However, I think Hanafin will make more of an overall impact right away.

I’m a huge Ferland fan, but Lindholm is a big upgrade from a scoring perspective. He’s a much more consistent and talented player with a much higher ceiling.

Fox was clearly not signing here.

I think the biggest loss will be Ferland’s physical presence. I thought the Flames missed Engelland in a big way and now the team is especially soft after losing Ferland.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Deegee

He might not even sign with Carolina.

Exactly, and so this deal start to make a lot more sense! This was a very astute move from the Flames standpoint.