Calgary Public Transit - Discussion

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by Acey

I bet for the cost of a little more than the proposed Crowchild fixes, they could bridge at least one of Shag or Sarcee so more traffic can bypass Crow all together. Bow and other routes would also need major fixes, but it'd still probably cost less than reinventing the wheel on Crowchild.

Yep fixing Crowchild looks very daunting. Shifting traffic farther west is a good idea. Maybe they could just rip up Edworthy Park and have traffic flow right out of downtown onto Shag.

[Joborule]

Depends on the destination/origin of traffic. Would these people be better served using Shaganappi/Sarcee? Maybe if they're around the suburban communities. But if many people are going to the more central south areas of the city, it would just put more pressure on the crossing routes, including and not limited to Glenmore.

Probably both need to be done.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Civic affairs writer for the Herald, Jason Markusoff had tweets from the Route Ahead meetings yesterday, a lot of great stuff.

Lrt plan timeline: SELRT start. Extend NE, S lines. NCLRT start. 8ave subway, airport rail start. NCLRT finish. SELRT finish

Nenshi asks on 8th Ave subway. Barretto: "If you want the system to function, the heart has to function." 7ave clogged

Transit vision: 8ave subway would handle Crowfoot-Somerset line, 7ave for Saddletowne-69 line

Calgary Transit trying to rebrand Crowfoot-Somerset line as red line, Saddletowne-69 as blue line
Nenshi wants NCLRT-SELRT to be renamed "green line"

Of course, Alderman from Ward 10, Andre Chabot continues to be one of the flat out dumbest members of Calgary city council.

Chabot on Ctr Street buses: "if it aint broke, why fix it?" Jordan: it is overclogged

Chabot: how about above-ground on 8th ave instead of subway?

[Joborule]

Really dislike the subway timeline. That should be done before, or at same time SELRT work begins, even with the 4 car expansion. That is unless they're planning to get both SE/NC started within the next five years.

[polak]

Calgary Transit once again proves how ######ed they are.

How on earth can you even consider adding a total new line let alone two, BEFORE the subway. On top of this they plan on extending lines and adding more ridership to a broken system.

God I hope I can afford to park downtown soon. Come on big raise!

[MrMastodonFarm]

Well, the system is far from broken but I do believe they need to get the 8th ave subway done before starting a new line. The North-Centre line works for now, it's a bandaid that will hold for a little while longer. The South-East LRT doesn't need to be started yet I don't think it's a huge issue.

Airport LRT? To me that is something so far off and isn't needed for some time. I don't see the point of a spur line just to the airport. Unless that line continues west, hooks up with the North-Centre line and then continues to the NW line it just isn't needed.

[moncton golden flames]

i posted this over at ssp, so i'll post it here too to discuss...

so i just watched live with nenshi and he mentioned that the city is looking at the nclrt and selrt project as;

"one giant leg of the lrt, 40 km long. all the way from the keystone to the new hospital in seton. my sense is they will start in the middle and radiate out. going from 16 ave to quarry park, and then extend out from there."

this was my prediction many months ago, and i still believe it is the proper way to keep both north central and south east commuters somewhat happy.

[polak]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Well, the system is far from broken but...

The system may not be broken now (although, I'd argue it is based on the total mess that downtown already is during rush hour) but it will be if they add the two lines before the subway. Then extending the current lines will be adding to the broken system. Thats what I meant by that

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Addick

Considering that new mixed-occupancy lanes will quickly become just as congested as before, it would be nice to see the new lanes help people using high occupancy vehicle get somewhere.

It can be very difficult to get pre-existing lanes turned from mixed-traffic to bus lanes. As such, it makes sense to avoid the lengthy and taxing battle by just building the lanes as HOV or bus lanes from the start.

Since my post I went to the 'Route-Ahead' website and than looked at the projects, specifically the Shagganappi HOV project. I noticed the dollar number and the long term time frame of the project and figured that it wouldn't be a case of repainting an existing lane, but rather adding a HOV lane. That I can support.

That said I'm actually pretty militant towards anything that takes away existing mixed traffic lanes anywhere for anything. If you want a new bike lane, make a new bike lane without taking away a traffic lane. So on that note I really hate the Northland drive and 10th Street bike lanes (Northland drive is actually a perfect example of poor short-sighted work motivated by ideology dressed up as pragmatism. At the corner by the fountain tire the bike lane actually curves away from the curb and the other two lanes curve as well towards the intersection. That design itself is going to be responsible for future bike / car collisions)

[SebC]

Originally Posted by polak

Calgary Transit once again proves how ######ed they are.

How on earth can you even consider adding a total new line let alone two, BEFORE the subway. On top of this they plan on extending lines and adding more ridership to a broken system.

To be fair, the SE LRT might take some pressure off the SW line (someone from the area could maybe tell me how much). However, extending the N to Keystone and S to 240 Ave or whatever it is before the 8th Ave Subway is completely assinine.

Oh and MMF can you remind me again why elevated on 7th is a bad idea? Thanks!

[Addick]

Originally Posted by polak

How on earth can you even consider adding a total new line let alone two, BEFORE the subway. On top of this they plan on extending lines and adding more ridership to a broken system.

I think Calgary Transit is banking on 4-car trains having a large impact on overcrowding. Unfortunately, I don't share this optimism and also worry about how they might even induce further demand. Consequently, I do think that extensions on the blue and red lines should follow an 8th Avenue subway rather than preceding it.

The third line won't really worsen the overcrowding but it would compete for valuable and currently limited funds. If 4-car trains will have a massive impact, I'd say the third line should go first. If not, the subway should be prioritized. I hate to say it but I think a thorough study might be required.

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Airport LRT? To me that is something so far off and isn't needed for some time. I don't see the point of a spur line just to the airport. Unless that line continues west, hooks up with the North-Centre line and then continues to the NW line it just isn't needed.

Spurs can be useful as they can allow a line to maintain its high frequency when it expands into areas that cannot support this frequency. By alternating between one or more spurs, the mainline can continue to handle its current rate of trains per hour while the spurs handle fewer trains per hour.

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

That said I'm actually pretty militant towards anything that takes away existing mixed traffic lanes anywhere for anything. If you want a new bike lane, make a new bike lane without taking away a traffic lane. So on that note I really hate the Northland drive and 10th Street bike lanes (Northland drive is actually a perfect example of poor short-sighted work motivated by ideology dressed up as pragmatism.

I'm open to the idea of taking away existing mixed-traffic lanes, however, I believe that every new bike should be useful and warranted. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if this has been the case recently in Calgary and it is terrible because it ends up hurts the cycling initiative.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by SebC

Oh and MMF can you remind me again why elevated on 7th is a bad idea? Thanks!

What?

[Rathji]

The SE/N LRT line will have no real impact on current traffic on 7th Ave. I don't see how starting it before the subway is even remotely relavent.

As for SE traffic, I think a good portion of that traffic that used to use the South LRT line has converted to the 302, but I highly doubt that it is even at 50% of all SE transit users, just due to the length of time it takes compared to driving to a park and ride. Pretty much every BRT 302 and Express bus I am on during rush hour from MacKenzie Towne is full before it hits Quarry Park.

Don't know what that really says about the volume though.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Rathji

The SE/N LRT line will have no real impact on current traffic on 7th Ave. I don't see how starting it before the subway is even remotely relavent.

Cost?

We're not dealing with unlimited funds here. I think the budget (whatever that is) should be allocated to a project that is needed first.

[mykalberta]

The south line currently runs every 2-6 minutes at peak times according to the CT website. What problem does a 800M subway solve? Does it allow for trains every 3 minutes? I think that adding an extra 30% capacity to every current train is going to help for a long time.

I personally think the reason alot of people want the subway is because they think that will decrease downtown traffic congestion. CT doesnt and shouldnt care about limiting traffic issues downtown as they are trying to compete for traffic into downtown. Their only reasoning with a subway should be operational and capacity concerns.

The NC-SE line wouldnt use 7th ave at all other than to cross it going N-S.

The real questions with the NC-SE line is how does it connect downtown? It appears it would go down centre street, then migrate over to 2nd street SW then east on 10th Ave. How does it get over to 2nd from Centre, and how does it get through gulf canada square?

There are alot of functional questions with the SE line getting into downtown. Using the CPR ROW etc.

[NuclearPizzaMan]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

The south line currently runs every 2-6 minutes at peak times according to the CT website.

In reality, it rarely makes these times. Delays are a constant reality on 7th ave, which creates backups across the system, which means we'll see gaps of 10-12 mins without a train, followed by 3 with 1 minute headways, which is too many, which will cause delays, and the cycle continues. Tighter timings on doors (not re-opening when interfered with), and more favorable traffic light timings on 7th ave and the crossings on 9st would improve it a great deal, but I imagine the car people would be upset.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Cost?

We're not dealing with unlimited funds here. I think the budget (whatever that is) should be allocated to a project that is needed first.

I think the cost to start the SE LRT, to perhaps Shepard or maybe even Quarry Park, would be miniscule compared to the cost to do the downtown subway.

Think about it, you are comparing buying up some property, most of which is empty and flat and laying track there with doing cut and cover (I assume) on an entire street downtown.

The SE route would require almost no traffic disruptions or rerouting except for a couple blocks downtown, since it turns north at roughly 2nd St IIRC. I can't even imagine the havoc that would be caused by 8th Ave being uprooted its entire length, even though it would obviously not all be done at once.

I think that the cost difference of those 2 projects could very well mean that the SE LRT starting sooner would give more of a return on the money spent with reduced load on the massively stressed south line.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Oh, don't disagree with that at all. Cost and scope of project is probably why the 8th ave subway is on the back burner.

[timun]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

The south line currently runs every 2-6 minutes at peak times according to the CT website. What problem does a 800M subway solve? Does it allow for trains every 3 minutes? I think that adding an extra 30% capacity to every current train is going to help for a long time.

I personally think the reason alot of people want the subway is because they think that will decrease downtown traffic congestion. CT doesnt and shouldnt care about limiting traffic issues downtown as they are trying to compete for traffic into downtown. Their only reasoning with a subway should be operational and capacity concerns.

Where does C-Train traffic back up? Where the existing lines meet at 9th St W and 3 St E. If the subway is built the existing NE-W and NW-S lines won't ever have to cross each other. Imagine how much faster the system would be if every single train on 7th Avenue was a NE-W train, and they never had to stop at 9th St W or 3rd St E to let a NW-S train into or out of downtown. That's also where the system experiences most of its failures: the switches freeze or break down.

There's also a significant problem with implementing four-car trains downtown without the subway: a 4-car train is longer than the blocks between 4th and 5th, 5th and 6th, and 6th and 7th Avenues. If a NW-bound train was stopped at 6th Ave a westbound train leaving 7th St Station would have nowhere to go because the ass-end of the NW-bound train would still be on 7th Ave...

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by timun

There's also a significant problem with implementing four-car trains downtown without the subway: a 4-car train is longer than the blocks between 4th and 5th, 5th and 6th, and 6th and 7th Avenues. If a NW-bound train was stopped at 6th Ave a westbound train leaving 7th St Station would have nowhere to go because the ass-end of the NW-bound train would still be on 7th Ave...

weird, because 7 avenue has all brand new stations that can handle 4 car trains.