Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Yet their arguments for why they believe that are generally theoretical things like supply and demand, which are only about as universally proven as trickle down economics.

You don't think that supply and demand are largely the largest force driving most prices? Just because you don't understand how that happens, doesn't make it a conspiracy theory.

Also highlighting that suppliers actively try and get the highest price possible for the goods they sell isn't evidence of 'greed', just evidence of them participating precisely in this process.

[Mr.Coffee]

Also, as long as margin supports it, yes prices can reduce due to increased supply / demand fundamentals. It’s the working theory behind others willing to take less margin to get the win.

Why Canadians have been conditioned to oligopolies and price protectionism, and seemingly want it, is beyond me. It literally makes no sense to defend the current system, unless you are a dairy farmer or politician who relies on the votes of that cartel.

[Jason14h]

It actually depends on the demand elasticity of milk whether prices would move

If everyone is already buying the exact amount of milk they need , more supply does nothing to prices and actually does just increase margin for the end seller who wouldn’t reduce their prices

If people would buy more milk if it was cheaper prices would move if wholesale cost came down .

Also need to factor if the shift to milk would just cannibalize another product on whether stores would lower prices

Also - I always though milk and eggs , etc were always low margin items because the store wants you to come in and then impulse buy higher margin stuff . (Loss leaders) - is that no longer the case ?

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

You don't think that supply and demand are largely the largest force driving most prices? Just because you don't understand how that happens, doesn't make it a conspiracy theory.

Supply and demand plays a roll for sure and I am very familiar with how it works thanks.

I never called it a conspiracy theory, it is however a theoretical concept. The same as trickle down economics is a theoretical concept, how you made the jump to anything that is theoretical in nature is a conspiracy theory is beyond me.

Also highlighting that suppliers actively try and get the highest price possible for the goods they sell isn't evidence of 'greed', just evidence of them participating precisely in this process.

Are you saying supply and demand was the reason why Loblaw was ordered to pay half a billion dollars in fines for scheming to fix the price of bread?

Perhaps you should first try to understand what I’m saying before taking this all or nothing if you’re not with us you’re against us approach and trying to put words in my mouth just because on the surface you don’t like a reasonable point that I’m bringing up.

Defining greed as it relates to business practices is about as subjective of a topic to discuss as anyone could come up with and I’m not suggesting that it’s wrong for a business to sell their goods or services for more than the bare minimum. But I think there is a lot of evidence that suggests greed, like supply and demand, can be a major factor in determining prices.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Also, as long as margin supports it, yes prices can reduce due to increased supply / demand fundamentals. It’s the working theory behind others willing to take less margin to get the win.

Why Canadians have been conditioned to oligopolies and price protectionism, and seemingly want it, is beyond me. It literally makes no sense to defend the current system, unless you are a dairy farmer or politician who relies on the votes of that cartel.

And to be clear, it is still possible to regulate the dairy market to be as safe and high quality as possible without the ridiculous supply management system.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Also - I always though milk and eggs , etc were always low margin items because the store wants you to come in and then impulse buy higher margin stuff . (Loss leaders) - is that no longer the case ?

They're highly negative margin items. Not sure on exact numbers, but usually between $1.00-1.50 lost on each gallon of milk.

It's not so much that you need people to come in and buy higher margin items, it's about price perception. People know what the price is for a gallon of milk everywhere they go, but maybe don't know the price of most other items. If you're the cheapest on that gallon of milk, then people will associate your brand with being less expensive

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by curves2000

People who really defend our level of supply management in Canada just don't appreciate really good food and like the pain of being royally screwed in the a**. There is no justification for it to the degree we have in Canada. Our dairy products are garbage, our prices are high, our quality is low and the level of import duties and limitations on the real good stuff is sky high. Nobody really wins except the people at the top.

I don't understand our dairy supply management enough to make meaningful comments, but during COVID, the import restrictions sure made a lot more sense.

As soon as things go to ####, foreign countries will consume their own supply of various goods before exporting.

If we don't retain the production capacity to feed our own people, we're putting everyone at a huge risk. Again, not at all saying the way we do it is good or not, I don't know. A fully free market seems dangerous for food however, especially with the US having extremely lax food production regulations compared to the rest of the developed world. They will be able to kill our industry pretty quickly if we go full free trade on food.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

I don't understand our dairy supply management enough to make meaningful comments, but during COVID, the import restrictions sure made a lot more sense.

As soon as things go to ####, foreign countries will consume their own supply of various goods before exporting.

If we don't retain the production capacity to feed our own people, we're putting everyone at a huge risk. Again, not at all saying the way we do it is good or not, I don't know. A fully free market seems dangerous for food however, especially with the US having extremely lax food production regulations compared to the rest of the developed world. They will be able to kill our industry pretty quickly if we go full free trade on food.

Which is why basically everywhere either has tariffs or subsidizes their dairy industry to keep it viable. There's no path to removing supply management without introducing heavy government subsidies.

I also think Curves is conflating a cultural issue (Canadians liking crappy food) with a policy one. The US has about the cheapest dairy in the industrialized world, but people still eat junk there including pre-grated "cheese", fake powdered parmesan, processed cheese singles, and thin yogurt with tons of sugar added to it.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Which is why basically everywhere either has tariffs or subsidizes their dairy industry to keep it viable. There's no path to removing supply management without introducing heavy government subsidies.

I also think Curves is conflating a cultural issue (Canadians liking crappy food) with a policy one. The US has about the cheapest dairy in the industrialized world, but people still eat junk there including pre-grated "cheese", fake powdered parmesan, processed cheese singles, and thin yogurt with tons of sugar added to it.

It's actually a little more complicated than that but that is a more long winded conversation. Countries around the world are always looking at protecting their industries but our supply management system is somewhat unique.

We literally have a federal policy and federal MP's of all political stripes sucking up to the dairy industry in a legal sense. It's very strategic and mostly geared towards Quebec/Ontario dairy producers and voters. You literally have them defending this policy in order to sell Canadian consumers fake versions of international products, increase prices multiple times a year like clockwork (despite costs and market factors maybe going down and more)

There are more nuance concerns that are more local in nature like the amount of imported cheeses from various countries that can be imported. This is where shortages a lot of times come into play where a local Polish, Italian, Greek, Dutch, French deli etc may have run out of your favorite cheeses toward the end of the year. It may be that another store or wholesaler may have bought up more of the cheese at a more strategic point in time for their own benefit and the store simply just can't get any more due to supply management.

When Canada and the EU negotiated their last trade deal, one of the biggest concerns was how much of the new, additional quota supply of EU cheeses/dairy products were bought up by major local producers with no intension of actually importing additional product. No point in bringing in more Greek feta or French Roquefort cheese when you can just sell more of your over priced, low grade Canadian garbage at a price that is increasing multiple times a year.

The reason we know this system is full of **** is because nobody is limiting production of other food and drink sources/imports to the same degree. Nobody is telling beef and pork producers to lower production for an increase in price and no federal MP's are drinking a fine glass of Alberta cabernet wine, talking about how we need to protect Alberta's interests. Alberta wine doesn't really exist and neither does Alberta feta cheese, gouda, parmesan etc.

[Fuzz]

I'm convinced. We need a National Strategic Cheese Reserve.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm convinced. We need a National Strategic Cheese Reserve.

We have a butter reserve in Montreal.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by opendoor

There's no path to removing supply management without introducing heavy government subsidies.

Every time this conversation comes up you say this it's 100% insupportable.

If you completely axed supply management you could keep the tariffs and domestic production would supply domestic demand at market clearing prices. Since producers would no longer need millions in quota their costs would be lower.

Personally I'd probably go with non-tarriff barriers (restrictions on hormones, etc) to keep out most American production and counter veiling duties relating to their subsidies for the rest.

Canada is competitive internationally on agriculture on everything we have the climate for. Dairy isn't some magical exception to that. If you set duties to offset subsidies in other countries Canadians are good enough to compete on a level playing field.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm convinced. We need a National Strategic Cheese Reserve.

We can put it right next to the National Strategic Maple Syrup Reserve!

Just down the block from the National Strategic Coffee and Donuts dispensary.

Watch out World...the Canadians are coming! But coffee first.

[Firebot]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/lib...ture-1.7359883

'The Liberal Party is strong and united,' Trudeau says after 24 MPs sign a letter calling on him to quit

The headline speaks for itself here. 24 MPs, after very prominent cabinet members have previously resigned (with one staying as independent), surely is the sign of a functional government that works for all Canadians that deserves to stick around for another year.

Meanwhile the Bloc and NDP are still supporting a government where it's own party members are in full blown mutiny against its leader. The 24 MPs in question are even threatening in a bloc in a vote of non confidence to bring down the government if Trudeau doesn't step down.

The inevitable is happening, it's just a matter of how fast we want to get it over with. The longer it goes, the more spectacular it will become.

[Fuzz]

I'm here for the fireworks.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm convinced. We need a National Strategic Cheese Reserve.

Wait! A what?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Wait! A what?

Shut up and get back in your Cheese cave. Cheese is supposed to be smelled and tasted, not heard.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by Firebot

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/lib...ture-1.7359883



The headline speaks for itself here. 24 MPs, after very prominent cabinet members have previously resigned (with one staying as independent), surely is the sign of a functional government that works for all Canadians that deserves to stick around for another year.

Meanwhile the Bloc and NDP are still supporting a government where it's own party members are in full blown mutiny against its leader. The 24 MPs in question are even threatening in a bloc in a vote of non confidence to bring down the government if Trudeau doesn't step down.

The inevitable is happening, it's just a matter of how fast we want to get it over with. The longer it goes, the more spectacular it will become.

Ooooo Oct 28th deadline for a caucus revolt. Oct 29th Deadline for the Bloc to support them. Gonna be a spooky Halloween for JT!

[DownInFlames]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Wait! A what?

https://www.farmlinkproject.org/stor...-lbs-of-cheese

I remember when growing up TV shows would talk about government cheese. It seemed like a dream at the time.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm convinced. We need a National Strategic Cheese Reserve.

My entire life I felt like if I could afford to be price insensitive to cheese and buy whatever cheese I wanted at the price being asked and not worry about how it impacted my net worth. Than I'd know I had no financial problems. So I'm better than poverty because I do feel that I have established food security for myself. But I've struggled to move up in class to Cheese security. After that it's other protein source security.