Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[GGG]

Old people have the lowest rates of poverty in Canada they are the least deserving of an almost universal top up. As a couple your income can be 180k and you still collect max OAS.

To pay for this increase they should reduce the threshold for clawbacks. There is absolutely no basis for the 65+ crowd to be increasing the relative spending on that demographic.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Sure didn't, but nice deflection. Are you disputing that PP uses similar rhetoric regarding the media as Trump?

Apologies if I was wrong there as I was pretty sure that happened years back as usually I don't think of things like that unless it's in my memory banks. All politicians use similar tactics if they have proven to be successful but that doesn't mean that PP is Trump. They share some tactics and possibly even some ideologies but they are two completely different people. I really don't know how you can compare Trump to any other politician quite frankly as he's pretty unique as I've not seen one like him in my lifetime in Western politics.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

If you think Canadian cheese is expensive just wait until you’re buying imported European cheese on the regular.

European cheese in Europe is way cheaper than Canadian cheese in Canada. The reason European cheese is so expensive in Canada is because there are huge tariffs to protect the domestic industry. If we didn't have supply management we wouldn't need the tariffs.

I happen to think Canadians are amazing and we'd be able to compete internationally, but with supply management we will never get to find out.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

European cheese in Europe is way cheaper than Canadian cheese in Canada. The reason European cheese is so expensive in Canada is because there are huge tariffs to protect the domestic industry. If we didn't have supply management we wouldn't need the tariffs.

I happen to think Canadians are amazing and we'd be able to compete internationally, but with supply management we will never get to find out.

And also because it costs money to import and ship things across an ocean.

[Party Elephant]

translation: must bring down the government

[Azure]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Maybe, but this would also impact other trading partners like European countries which have vastly superior products to Canada. Also, it is my understanding, that this type of bill could have repercussions in other trade negotiations and could negatively impacts Canada's ability to secure deals. If country A can't access the Canada cheese market they limit our exports of beef, pork, wheat or whatever.

Also, we do not need to give 100% market access. We could allow 5% more cheese imports from Europe as an example, or 2% more dairy imports from the US.

Which of course would drive more competition and lower prices.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Azure

Also, we do not need to give 100% market access. We could allow 5% more cheese imports from Europe as an example, or 2% more dairy imports from the US.

Which of course would drive more competition and lower prices.

The US doesn’t want more access to our market so that they can lower existing prices.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

European cheese in Europe is way cheaper than Canadian cheese in Canada. The reason European cheese is so expensive in Canada is because there are huge tariffs to protect the domestic industry.

I don't know, I don't have an extensive knowledge of the price of European cheeses. But something like the Kerrygold Dubliner is about the same price in Canada as it is in the US, so I'm not sure tariffs explain it.

If we didn't have supply management we wouldn't need the tariffs.

I don't really follow the logic. Tariffs exist because dairy production is heavily government subsidized in virtually every other country, but it isn't in Canada. If supply management no longer existed, then the reason for the tariffs would still remain. Unless we directly subsidized the industry like most other countries do, then retail prices would be artificially lower like they are elsewhere.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by opendoor

I don't know, I don't have an extensive knowledge of the price of European cheeses. But something like the Kerrygold Dubliner is about the same price in Canada as it is in the US, so I'm not sure tariffs explain it.

I don't really follow the logic. Tariffs exist because dairy production is heavily government subsidized in virtually every other country, but it isn't in Canada. If supply management no longer existed, then the reason for the tariffs would still remain. Unless we directly subsidized the industry like most other countries do, then retail prices would be artificially lower like they are elsewhere.

Supply management is just a different mechanism of subsidy for the industry. Instead of direct subsidies from the government they have created a mechanism for controlling supply quotas and regulating prices so that the farmers can maintain profitability.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Supply management is just a different mechanism of subsidy for the industry. Instead of direct subsidies from the government they have created a mechanism for controlling supply quotas and regulating prices so that the farmers can maintain profitability.

Yeah, that's my point. You can't get rid of supply management and tariffs unless you're prepared to replace the lost revenue through taxpayer subsidies. Which is fine, but people need to be honest what that means.

And it's not like it's just a free for all. The government is only going to backstop so much production with subsidies, so you'll still have largely the same players and level of production. But instead of dairy consumers covering the cost of production, it'll be taxpayers funding through additional debt and/or higher tax rates.

[Firebot]

I find stances quite interesting considering the political nature of the cheese tariffs and how they came to be.

US tariffs on European cheese are higher and quotas much more restrictive than Canada thanks to Trump tariff changes in 2017 (I do not believe it changed since). It should be no surprise that European cheese prices in the US would be somewhat similar to European cheese prices in Canada as a result.

https://www.europeanceo.com/industry...-dairy-market/

Trudeau and Liberals increased quotas for EU cheese imports in 2017's CETA agreement with the EU (effectively lowering tariffs). This is why you see European cheeses at somewhat similar prices as Canadian ones in your typical store. The dairy cartel in Canada has long being furious about this even though more of of the TRQ allocation was given to domestic producers as a compromise.

Kerrygold Dubliner and Jarlsberg for examples are imported via Agropur to be sold in Canada. They pay zero to low duties to import them under the TRQ allocation.

https://www.agropursolutions.ca/en/p...liner-2-x-25kg

The deal with the UK under exemption after leaving the EU fell apart in 2024 and are now subject to higher tariffs

https://www.canada.ca/en/global-affa...tsfromthe.html

The Bloc's bill (which was already voted in) has been stuck in the senate by over a year by "independent" senators lingering on it, which the Bloc wants expedited by the Liberals while parliament is still in power (an election would kill the bill at the senate level). Supply management is an interesting one as this is one that the CPC allowed a free vote on and one which Poilievre personally voted for it while half the CPC voted against it. It's very much a localized issue that passes partisan lines, with Ontario / Quebec being the main benefactors of the impacted industries at the detriment of the rest of Canada.

https://www.ourcommons.ca/Members/en...ince-territory

More info on TRQ here if curious

https://www.international.gc.ca/trad....aspx?lang=eng

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

And also because it costs money to import and ship things across an ocean.

I mean that's true, but cheese is pretty valuable for how heavy/large it is, so shipping it isn't a big portion of the total cost.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Supply management is an interesting one as this is one that the CPC allowed a free vote on and one which Poilievre personally voted for it while half the CPC voted against it. It's very much a localized issue that passes partisan lines, with Ontario / Quebec being the main benefactors of the impacted industries at the detriment of the rest of Canada.

Yes - open door and others consistently say we'd have to subsidize our dairy industries if we removed the trade barriers and supply management, but that isn't the case. We could remove the trade barriers and not subsidize. That would almost certainly lead to the demise of some smaller/inefficient producers in ON/QC, and lead to the rise of larger scale players in Western Canada where agricultural costs are lower. It would also give us the moral authority to demand better market access for other commodities produced by Canadians, improving other sectors of our economy.

There's even a precedent for this. In the '80s New Zealand ended their subsidies and tariffs for the agriculture industry. It was a huge success and they are now a very large exporter of agricultural goods, especially dairy.

A paper to the Convention on Biological Diversity (part of the UN Environment program, so not exactly the Frasier Institute) had this to say:

Today, the agriculture sector is larger than when it was heavily supported; it is more profitable, efficient and innovative. The meat industry has developed from the least efficient to the second most efficient in the world. Employment in the sector has actually increased

and also

There was a halt to land clearance and overstocking, which had been major causes of high levels of soil erosion. Livestock production has now been intensified on better land rather than hills prone to erosion, and hills have been reforested leading to a 50 percent increase in area under plantations.

https://www.cbd.int/doc/case-studies...chnical-en.pdf

In Canada that would mean making the industry more competitive by moving it to where agriculture is most competitive. Which is Western Canada. So while there's not a reasonable economic argument for supply management, there sure is a strong political one for it.

[Fuzz]

I'm just curious why it is QC/Ont would be less efficient than western Canada? Is it just smaller farms?

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm just curious why it is QC/Ont would be less efficient than western Canada? Is it just smaller farms?

Higher cost of land is the biggest issue.

[iggy_oi]

Hypothetically if this were to happen bizaro, is there any hard evidence that we would see lower prices for us here if the market price that consumers are willing to pay has already been established?

[opendoor]

New Zealand doesn't have the United States right next door to happily dump subsidized dairy on them to eliminate competition.

And given that the costs of production between Canada and the US are quite similar (Canada is about 10% higher), there's zero chance that efficiency improvements could come anywhere close to overcoming the benefit of subsidization that US farms receive. Particularly given that California (which relies heavily on undocumented workers) is the only reason that US milk production is any cheaper than Canada. If you exclude California, the average cost to produce 100L of milk is $71 USD, vs. $69 USD in Canada.

And of course, much like other commodities, lower cost of production doesn't mean a cheaper price for consumers. New Zealanders pay the same for milk that Canadians do. Right now, the retail price for milk in New Zealand is about $1.70-2.15 CAD/L depending on the quantity at discount supermarkets. In Canada, it's about $1.40-2.40/L where I live.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Hypothetically if this were to happen bizaro, is there any hard evidence that we would see lower prices for us here if the market price that consumers are willing to pay has already been established?

As we saw from COVID, for-profit organizations are notorious for dropping the prices of things below what people will pay when their cost goes down. Why make more profit when you could just leave it on the table for the good of the people?

lol

[Fuzz]

CTV has dropped two members of its news team after an altered clip of Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre went to air in a recent national news report, according to a statement from the network posted to social media.

The network said it "conducted an investigation to determine whether a breach of our editorial policies and practices had occurred in this case." It said the probe found "two members of the CTV News team are responsible for altering a video clip, manipulating it for a particular story."

The network said these actions "violate our editorial standards and are unacceptable."

The statement did not name the former staff members.

"Those individuals are no longer members of the CTV News team," it said.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ctv...335509?cmp=rss

Good on CTV for that, we definitely don't need one of our few reliable news sources going rogue. Now it's time for PP to apologize to CEO Mirko Bibic for his slander.

[Looch City]

They just fired them?

That's not far enough. This is honestly the biggest media scandal to hit CTV, maybe even Canada. They should be personally fined and be held in jail until public trial.