Prom cancelled because of lesbian teen

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Republican presidents Lincoln, Grant, Roosevelt, Eisenhower, and Ford politely cough into their hands and mutter "Bull"

Jasonhouse has a limited timeline view, he's also shown the typical narrow minded approach of a zealot.

If you want to go further, democrat president Andrew Jackson created the Indian Removal Act

Franklin Pierce supported slavery

James Buchanan supported the concept of Kansas as a slave state

Roosevelt supported the internment of the Japanese during WWII

While I agree with some of what you say, and disagree immensely with this "jasonhouse" character, I think you are getting Democrat/Republican confused with left/right. The Lincoln Republicans were more liberal than the Democrats of the day.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

While I agree with some of what you say, and disagree immensely with this "jasonhouse" character, I think you are getting Democrat/Republican confused with left/right. The Lincoln Republicans were more liberal than the Democrats of the day.

Exactly. The Republicans at the time were brand spanking new.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

While I agree with some of what you say, and disagree immensely with this "jasonhouse" character, I think you are getting Democrat/Republican confused with left/right. The Lincoln Republicans were more liberal than the Democrats of the day.

The divisions of the parties back then had more to do with states rights vs. federalism and centralization - not really social liberalism or conservatism. The democrats over time, made efforts to appeal to immigrants which is probably why they started to move a little left, but even today, both parties have some social "lefties and righties" in them.

[PIMking]

Gay people have just as much of a right to be miserable just like us strait people.

[PIMking]

Also I think they should be able to get married because why not make them pay taxes like the rest of us strait marriages..

[Temporary_User]

Originally Posted by PIMking

Gay people have just as much of a right to be miserable just like us strait people.

Originally Posted by PIMking

Also I think they should be able to get married because why not make them pay taxes like the rest of us strait marriages..

freudian or uneducated?

Strait:
Often, straits. a position of difficulty, distress, or need: Ill and penniless, he was in sad straits indeed.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by photon

I dunno, sometimes if someone's being a jerk telling them a jerk is the only real thing to do. And I'm the one that's usually way far on the "less emotion and more irrational discussion" scale.

I agree that myself I wouldn't have used some of the words or phrases that some used, but otoh I didn't think they were that inappropriate..



Why not? If I'm a jerk all the time, I'm not going to know if no one ever tells me. If enough people tell me I'm a jerk then maybe I'll figure out it's me.. though if I'm a jerk maybe not lol.



This discussion won't change his views anyway; you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

Driving someone away does have one positive impact though; they aren't around to spread their views and make others who share them feel they are valid. I don't care if someone is racist/homophobic/whatever, but if they hide because they can't defend their opinions then that's good because it doesn't spread, it doesn't embolden others who are racist/homophobic, and hopefully will keep them out of the decision making process so things like this prom can continue with everyone having a good time.

The way I see it is that it's largely a matter of choosing the appropriate action for the intended result and the given context. If this weren't an internet discussion board, and one of a huge number of instantly accessible communities available online then calling someone a jerk may cause them to reconsider their opinion. As is, the community on this discussion board is so distant and so disposable for someone in a place like Mississippi that calling someone a jerk is not likely to have any bearing on how they think about their views. That person can immediately have the reinforcement of their views from their real life community and can also immediately access other online communities that will support those views. All that calling the person a jackass or a disgusting human being accomplishes is shutting down the lines of communication.

If someone believes that the discussion won't change narbeZ's views anyways, then maybe the result they're looking for is just to say "F*** off! You're not welcome in our community here!" and have that person go away. I guess that mission has been accomplished. Maybe that's the culture that people want on this board. It's certainly not a real discussion though. Furthermore, while driving someone away may mean that they don't share their views in this community, it just makes them more likely to find reinforcement in other communities that share those views, which I'm sure are more immediate and powerful for a person living in Mississippi than this Flames message board is. Again, all it's doing is shutting down communication and ultimately taking away an opportunity for that person to change their views by engagement with people who disagree. The communities that support those viewpoints continue to exist and reinforce the views we find objectionable.

I also disagree with the notion that you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place. In fact, I'd say that's totally contrary to what most learning actually is. Most beliefs that people hold haven't been reasoned into, but are formed through experience or passed onto them from their community. It's through explanation and demonstration that things are different from preconceptions that we do learn. I'm sure everyone on this board has been reasoned out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

Although this isn't really part of my argument, I have a lot of experience dealing with issues like this. I am a Canadian born white guy who is the child of Scottish immigrants. I now live in China and am married into a Chinese family with a wife who has only once ever left China. I work in an international school which focuses heavily on character education and where I both deal with children representing 15+ different nationalities (one of whom is in grade 9 and openly gay) and I manage teachers representing 10+ nationalities (another of whom is gay). I deal with issues like this on a daily basis both in my work environment and in my family life. I am very familiar with the way these situations tend to play out and how the nuances of communities and social pressures affect people. Social pressures affect people when they are either forced into being a part of a community or are accepted into it, but insulting people based on the difference between their views and the views of a community which they are not tied into does nothing but shut down communication and lead to a reinforcement of their prejudices.

[photon]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

All that calling the person a jackass or a disgusting human being accomplishes is shutting down the lines of communication.

Which is why I personally try not to do anything like that. Or at least I try to give the person a chance to actually engage in a discussion to begin with. If I try and don't get any kind of engagement then there's not much else to do than disengage and leave it alone.

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

If someone believes that the discussion won't change narbeZ's views anyways, then maybe the result they're looking for is just to say "F*** off! You're not welcome in our community here!" and have that person go away. I guess that mission has been accomplished. Maybe that's the culture that people want on this board. It's certainly not a real discussion though.

No it's not a real discussion, and again I prefer to try to engage first, but on the other side is every single person obligated to make the effort?

(If you know how I post you'll know that I'm arguing for a point of view that's against my style here, partially being a devil's advocate and partially because sometimes I wonder if I'm too nice sometimes; that sometimes maybe it's not wrong to get a little emotional and get a bit rowdy)

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Furthermore, while driving someone away may mean that they don't share their views in this community, it just makes them more likely to find reinforcement in other communities that share those views, which I'm sure are more immediate and powerful for a person living in Mississippi than this Flames message board is. Again, all it's doing is shutting down communication and ultimately taking away an opportunity for that person to change their views by engagement with people who disagree. The communities that support those viewpoints continue to exist and reinforce the views we find objectionable.

Now that is a good point, I agree if people think of themselves as marginalised they may retreat to their own and there's no help for them then.

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Most beliefs that people hold haven't been reasoned into, but are formed through experience or passed onto them from their community. It's through explanation and demonstration that things are different from preconceptions that we do learn. I'm sure everyone on this board has been reasoned out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

True, many beliefs are just picked up by just being in a community and defaulting to whatever, but I don't really see those as being strongly believed, they're just "there"... comparatively easy to alter when one actually goes to apply reason because there's no barrier to change.

But when one chooses to strongly believe something, when they believe it because it's True(tm), that different I think. They cannot be reasoned out of that position, because reason has nothing to do with what they think. First they have to decide that reason matters at all, that belief based on nothing isn't sufficient to support a position. After that then they can be reasoned with, because they are willing to accept reason.

But if someone is not willing to accept reason, if someone just believes they are right and their answer to the question "what would change your mind" is "nothing, I'm right", then there's nothing to be done.

[bcb]

I'm Canadian. What is this 'prom' thing you speak of?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Republican presidents Lincoln, Grant, Roosevelt, Eisenhower, and Ford politely cough into their hands and mutter "Bull"

Jasonhouse has a limited timeline view, he's also shown the typical narrow minded approach of a zealot.

If you want to go further, democrat president Andrew Jackson created the Indian Removal Act

Franklin Pierce supported slavery

James Buchanan supported the concept of Kansas as a slave state

Roosevelt supported the internment of the Japanese during WWII

You seem to have confused Republican with conservative. Political paradigms have shifted dramatically over the years.

[bcb]

Originally Posted by valo403

You seem to have confused Republican with conservative. Political paradigms have shifted dramatically over the years.

Agreed. That's why some southern states still elect democrats to public office. The democrats historically were the party to support down-home family values, while the Republicans were the industrial, greedy carpetbaggers from the north.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by valo403

You seem to have confused Republican with conservative. Political paradigms have shifted dramatically over the years.

Except if you look at the presidents that I named, I doubt you would find a group of men that had more conservative or right wing leanings.

I didn't name every republican president just like I didn't name every democratic president.

If I'm wrong I'm wrong. But I did take umbridge to the post that everyone on the right side of the spectrum is responsible for slavery, repression, buggery and economic destruction.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Except if you look at the presidents that I named, I doubt you would find a group of men that had more conservative or right wing leanings.

I didn't name every republican president just like I didn't name every democratic president.

If I'm wrong I'm wrong. But I did take umbridge to the post that everyone on the right side of the spectrum is responsible for slavery, repression, buggery and economic destruction.

Right wing-Left wing isn't an all encompassing thing. Leaders have been quite right wing on certain issues while at the same time being very left wing on others. Things have changed quite a bit recently, but the eras that you were referencing weren't so divided into the all or nothing approach that we see now. That's my biggest issue with the current state of world politics, you can't support certain social issues and still support conservative fiscal policy or what have you, the platforms have just become so all or nothing that it seems like progress always stalls.

[MRCboicgy]

Originally Posted by valo403

Right wing-Left wing isn't an all encompassing thing. Leaders have been quite right wing on certain issues while at the same time being very left wing on others. Things have changed quite a bit recently, but the eras that you were referencing weren't so divided into the all or nothing approach that we see now. That's my biggest issue with the current state of world politics, you can't support certain social issues and still support conservative fiscal policy or what have you, the platforms have just become so all or nothing that it seems like progress always stalls.

This is why watching American politics (and ours too, but to a lesser extent) has been driving me nuts. I love Jon Stewart, but when he blew up that Marc Theissen ######bag this week, it just left me feeling sick that it's becoming so polarized.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Except if you look at the presidents that I named, I doubt you would find a group of men that had more conservative or right wing leanings.

I didn't name every republican president just like I didn't name every democratic president.

If I'm wrong I'm wrong. But I did take umbridge to the post that everyone on the right side of the spectrum is responsible for slavery, repression, buggery and economic destruction.

You missed bad BO, egregious flatulence, weak beer, bad hair days, and Mondays.

[Roast Beef]

Originally Posted by narbeZ

I don't have the time or patience to make you believe a fairytale but you have the time to write a book about why I should be in favor of two homosexuals attending a prom. Your fighting a losing battle with me my friend and apparently Mississippi.

Originally Posted by Roast Beef

You are a disgusting human being.

narbeZ I would like to formally apologize to you. My comment was grossly unfair. I strongly disagree with your beliefs but calling you "disgusting" was a major error on my part. It was just plain wrong and I am sorry for that.

[Thor]

American Humanist Association offers to hold a LGBT friendly prom in Mississippi:

Washington, DC, March 12, 2010) The American Humanist Association (AHA) stepped forward today and offered to plan and fund a prom for the Itawamba County Agricultural High School in Mississippi. The Itawamba County School District made headlines earlier this week by cancelling their prom rather than letting a lesbian student, Constance McMillen, bring her girlfriend as her date. “It’s shameful that closed-minded members of the school board are prepared to deprive an entire class of students their prom over their outdated religious mores.” said Roy Speckhardt, Executive Director of the AHA. "People can hold to any belief or no belief in this nation, but the school board misuses their position when they try to impose their beliefs on the student population in Itawamba.”

McMillen was barred from the prom after making it known that she intended to bring a same-sex date. The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) of Mississippi became involved and demanded the school reverse its policy. The school board responded by cancelling the prom.

“The ACLU is doing good work in Mississippi, and we humanists can also bring resources to the table that will defend students from a repressive school board,” added Speckhardt. “Prom is a special event for teens across America; we’ll make sure it’s a special night for these students as well.”

AHA members Todd and Diana Stiefel made a $20,000 grant available to the AHA for the purpose of holding a prom in Itawamba County. The AHA will be discussing logistics with the pertinent parties today.

http://www.americanhumanist.org/news...e-prom-in-miss

[mikey_the_redneck]

Bump.....

http://tv.msn.com/tv/article.aspx?news=489055&gt1=28103

I find Ellen Degenerate annoying....................but she did a nice thing here....

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Bump.....

http://tv.msn.com/tv/article.aspx?news=489055&gt1=28103

I find Ellen Degenerate annoying....................but she did a nice thing here....

She's just pushing the Gay agenda right?

[FlamesAddiction]

Every time I see this thread, I first read the title as; "Porn cancelled because of teenage lesbian".

Which is ridiculous, because that would never happen.