Cheifs Threaten Train Blockades on June 29

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Cow's referring to the fact that native bands didn't exactly peacefully co-exist before Europeans and that they too stole land from other natives. The big difference is that we provide at least some sort of compensation rather than the 'old way' of killing and/or enslaving conquered peoples.

Yeah, it's a pretty brutal point to make though. Go ahead and apply the same logic to WWII

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

Yeah, it's a pretty brutal point to make though. Go ahead and apply the same logic to WWII

Hmm didn't the losing side have to pay compensation after that war?

[chris lindberg]

I admit...I have the utmost respect for natives of the past...but little for the GROUP of natives who are looking for handouts. Yes, I am aware that ALL are not. I have met many natives who are excellent people.

Something I often heard from the natives was about their treaties, culture, heritage, etc...and everything they demand seems to fall back on that. Oddly enough, I have a greater understanding of native history, culture, and heritage than the majority of natives these days.

Wess, I commend you, as it sounds you may have of changed your attitude towards the Native people of Canada somewhat? something you had said about a year ago had me quite disgusted....

Sorry, but this is complete horseshat...and exactly what natives with hard done by attitudes want. Quit sulking about crap that happened 200 years ago. Hell, you are a conquered friggin' people...you had your asses handed to you years ago, feel fortunate you were allowed to stick around and live....nevermind be handed housing etc. Nuff said.

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Vulcan, Rouge, Unibomber? I'm not hearing a lot in the way of solutions from your side of the fence.

But at least I think we can all agree here that the Status Quo isn't working, right?

That's tough to offer a solution. I find that the natives who have a strong sense of culture are far better off than the ones that don't, that's just my perception from seeing programs and travelling around western Canada. How they get from point a to point b i have no idea. I have watched a few interesting shows around that and it seems to hold true, i'm assuming it has to do with good leaders vs bad leaders similar to any other culture.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I agree the past is the past if that is what you are saying. Your answer is to continue screwing them around by more coqueyed solutions that have only made things worse, me I like to think I'm a little above that by making the effort to approach each human being as equal and treating everyone fairly each day.

Equality isn't what we have, so if that is your approach to people, exactly why shouldn't that same approach apply to the laws of the land? You can talk all you want about treating people with respect, but that is long on the feel-good and short on the useful; I still don't see any suggestions on what you think is the right way to go forward. If it is more of "let the chiefs keep on screwing over the people 'cause otherwise it's interference in their affairs", I'm not really seeing how that is far more insensitive than anything I've brought up.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by SeeGeeWhy

That said, Natives in Canada are in an absolutely desolute position. The South African Apartheid was built using the model of how Canada's government dealt with the Native population as a guide - that is scary stuff, and difficult to fight against.

....

It is truly Canada's dirty little secret. It is a huge problem and no one knows what to do about it.... so nothing gets done.

All true, and it puzzles me how it can be wrong to want to end the reserve system, and yet it was right to oppose apartheid. The tribes in South Africa made treaties with the white government, too, and the only real difference is that they more or less had to support themselves instead of getting a monthly cheque and subsidized housing (although the gov't did put some infrastructure into the tribal homelands, mostly as a sop to foreign opinion, whereas they may as well not have bothered).

I think plenty of people know what needs to be done - the end of special status - but nobody wants to the one to step out and say it for the fear of those who will immediately label them as racist and fascist. I suspect that one day the problem will escalate to violence, terrorism and insurrection, and we'll look back and wonder why nobody could see it coming.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Hmm didn't the losing side have to pay compensation after that war?

Yes, but unfortunately it was decided that death camps couldn't be set up for the Germans just because they had done it themselves. Oh... and I remember something about helping Japan rebuild in there too...

[llama64]

Originally Posted by jammies

All true, and it puzzles me how it can be wrong to want to end the reserve system, and yet it was right to oppose apartheid. The tribes in South Africa made treaties with the white government, too, and the only real difference is that they more or less had to support themselves instead of getting a monthly cheque and subsidized housing (although the gov't did put some infrastructure into the tribal homelands, mostly as a sop to foreign opinion, whereas they may as well not have bothered).

I think plenty of people know what needs to be done - the end of special status - but nobody wants to the one to step out and say it for the fear of those who will immediately label them as racist and fascist. I suspect that one day the problem will escalate to violence, terrorism and insurrection, and we'll look back and wonder why nobody could see it coming.

Our society does indeed need to rid itself of special status -- native populations in particular. That said, realize that there where at least two generations of natives who had the culture ripped away and sent to indoctrination schools. Basic parenting methods and skills went out the window leaving their kids without a hope -- which leads to most of the social problems you find with them. Things are apparently starting to recover, slowly. But, if you were to abolish the reserves and remove special status, a large portion of the Native population would be completly unable to function properly in society.

It's a horrible situation and I don't think it's one that can be solved by any elected officials -- too volitile and icky.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Hmm didn't the losing side have to pay compensation after that war?

You are thinking of WWI. After WWII, the Western Allies rebuilt both Japan and (Western) Germany, and also put plenty of money into Italy. Much of the drive behind that was the realization that the bitterly resented terms of Versailles had much to do with the rise of militarism between the wars in both the defeated nations (Germany/Austria) and in the victors that thought they didn't get enough of the spoils (Italy/Japan).

The Soviets extracted plenty of reparations (like dismantling entire factories and putting them on trains to send East and be reassembled), however they also did the same to any country they conquered during the war, whether or not that country had started out Axis so it might be that "reparations" should have been termed "officially sanctioned looting" instead.

[WessThompson]

Originally Posted by chris lindberg

Wess, I commend you, as it sounds you may have of changed your attitude towards the Native people of Canada somewhat? something you had said about a year ago had me quite disgusted....

It is things like these road blocks, railway blocks, etc. that cause anger like the post you speak of. I think it is a piss poor way of gaining support. Sure, you gain attention...but I am quite sure there are MANY angry people out there after todays actions. Events like this do the natives no favours, and certainly don't garner support.

I lived very close to the whole situation that happened in Ipperwash years ago...and to be honest, I am still completely disgusted every time i drive by that place. They wanted the land back which was at the time in government hands and military property. The natives claimed it was sacred ground and a special place....a burial ground. In the end, after a life was lost...they did get the land back. What has become of it now?? It has pretty much become a dump. The place is in a tourist area...and the entire section which fronts the hwy is littered with burned out and rotted cars and crap. The buildings are still standing, but now are caked with anti-government, anti-canadian grafiti. Yes...it would seem the land is and was a very special place to them

It's tough to get behind a group of people like this.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by jammies

Equality isn't what we have, so if that is your approach to people, exactly why shouldn't that same approach apply to the laws of the land? You can talk all you want about treating people with respect, but that is long on the feel-good and short on the useful; I still don't see any suggestions on what you think is the right way to go forward. If it is more of "let the chiefs keep on screwing over the people 'cause otherwise it's interference in their affairs", I'm not really seeing how that is far more insensitive than anything I've brought up.

Some chiefs are screwing over the people, some aren't. The Chiefs and their councils have only had any real power for about twenty years. This is a short time for the people to learn the responsibilities of democracy. Cronyism [ interesting, I just looked up cronyism on Answers to check the spelling and the first item is George W. Bush] goes on there and it goes on in our government too. The big difference is in the size of the pie being divided.
Even Canada's early democratic history didn't go to smoothly from what I remember in school and corruption is still around. Didn't some guy in Quebec just get 5 years for being on the receiving end of free government money. I can't see that by taking away what little they have [your solution] is going to make things better.

[chris lindberg]

Originally Posted by WessThompson

It is things like these road blocks, railway blocks, etc. that cause anger like the post you speak of. I think it is a piss poor way of gaining support. Sure, you gain attention...but I am quite sure there are MANY angry people out there after todays actions. Events like this do the natives no favours, and certainly don't garner support.

I think a lot more people know of the crisis facing the Native people of Canada after today, hopefully more Canadians will realize that we do have a right to control our own destiny.

Treaty obligations to share the wealth of this land have been ignored by the government.

Legal battles over landrights move at a snails pace, some say it could be another hundred years

There is an urgency needed in securing a better future for First Nations children by eradicating poverty and upholding respect, dignity and fairness for them in the process.

Honouring First Nations treaty and land rights by restoring their access to land and resources is central to doing that.

It is time to act, to remember the rights of First Nations and to urge our government to include them in decision-making that impacts their lives such as health care, employment, housing, safe drinking water and education.

[WessThompson]

Originally Posted by chris lindberg

I think a lot more people know of the crisis facing the Native people of Canada after today, hopefully more Canadians will realize that we do have a right to control our own destiny.

Treaty obligations to share the wealth of this land have been ignored by the government.

Legal battles over landrights move at a snails pace, some say it could be another hundred years

There is an urgency needed in securing a better future for First Nations children by eradicating poverty and upholding respect, dignity and fairness for them in the process.

Honouring First Nations treaty and land rights by restoring their access to land and resources is central to doing that.

It is time to act, to remember the rights of First Nations and to urge our government to include them in decision-making that impacts their lives such as health care, employment, housing, safe drinking water and education.

Hmmm...do natives not have the same rights as the rest of Canadians do as it is? And perhaps more?? Last I checked they did. By eradicating poverty what exactly do you mean?? Is the rest of Canada to support natives financially more so than what is already done? If poverty is to be eradicted...should not all poverty striken people be on an equal playing field here? Why is it natives deserve special treatment?? They are certainly not the only poverty striken people in this country.I am all for giving people the tools they need to move forward...but not for giving hand outs financially.
Education would be a good start. Natives are as capable of working as the rest of us Canadians are...

How is giving land to the Natives a good start? If you read my post above...you will see an example of what is done with the land.

Do you really think the thousands of people who were put out by these roadblocks and transportation shut downs are more aware of the problems facing natives because of it? Hell no. It only further divides natives from the rest of the Canadian people.

[chris lindberg]

How is giving land to the Natives a good start? If you read my post above...you will see an example of what is done with the land.

That was just one example, and you sound as if you really believe the rest of the 500 First Nations within Canada would do the same?

I guess most people just don't understand how the Native people of Canada are handcuffed by the government regarding treaty obligations to share the wealth of this land, Legal battles over landrights moving so slow it could take another hundred years to settle, honouring First Nations treaty and land rights by restoring their access to land and resources will greatly reduce the 40-60% of Native people living in poverty by creating jobs and self esteem within these communities. You don't seem to understand that Native people have a right to be included in decision-making that impacts their lives such as health care, employment, housing, safe drinking water and education. It's like you didn't even read the post of mine you just quoted.

[lifer]

Originally Posted by chris lindberg

That was just one example, and you sound as if you really believe the rest of the 500 First Nations within Canada would do the same?

I guess most people just don't understand how the Native people of Canada are handcuffed by the government regarding treaty obligations to share the wealth of this land, Legal battles over landrights moving so slow it could take another hundred years to settle, honouring First Nations treaty and land rights by restoring their access to land and resources will greatly reduce the 40-60% of Native people living in poverty by creating jobs and self esteem within these communities. You don't seem to understand that Native people have a right to be included in decision-making that impacts their lives such as health care, employment, housing, safe drinking water and education. It's like you didn't even read the post of mine you just quoted.

Hmm...I could have sworn that they are allowed to vote. I even heard a rumour that natives are allowed to run for political office.

[daveyboy]

Lifer, There is some reluctance to vote in a system that has oppressed us for so long. There has also been many issues related to actual casting of ballots (long geographical distances, changing boundraies, trouble with registration lists).

The national day of action in Regina was a great sucesss! Many people attended our cultural activities and family picinic and there was a lot of fun and learning that went on. The only blockade that I know of in Saskatchewan was a targeted direct action against an access road to a mine that is on disputed land.

As for a way to solve all the problems (yes there are problems). Why should we have to or be forced to integrate into your society? Some Natives do and they of course can continue too. I think an ideal solution would be for aboriginal government to be recognized as a third branch of government along side Federal and Provincial. This approach is rapidly gaining support in the academy as well as the SCC. It gives us back our independence and control and allows us to develop solutions to the problems we our dealing with such as poverty, suicide, addiction, loss of culture etc... It is naive to think that a 'white man' solution will fix our problems. We need a Native solution that can help reshape our great society. I'm not advocating for sucession of all the Native reserves at all, just allowing them to exist and operate as a third branch within the current federal structure.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by daveyboy

Lifer, There is some reluctance to vote in a system that has oppressed us for so long. There has also been many issues related to actual casting of ballots (long geographical distances, changing boundraies, trouble with registration lists).

There's an old saying that if you give up your right to vote in a democratic society you give up your right to effect change. I have problems with people who withdraw from the democratic process and then complain about the decisions that are made afterwards.

Originally Posted by daveyboy

The national day of action in Regina was a great sucesss! Many people attended our cultural activities and family picinic and there was a lot of fun and learning that went on. The only blockade that I know of in Saskatchewan was a targeted direct action against an access road to a mine that is on disputed land.

There were road blockades and rail blockades in Ontario, I'm pretty sure that this didn't help the cause. I'm glad that it was a success, and for the most part the protests were peaceful.

Originally Posted by daveyboy

As for a way to solve all the problems (yes there are problems). Why should we have to or be forced to integrate into your society? Some Natives do and they of course can continue too. I think an ideal solution would be for aboriginal government to be recognized as a third branch of government along side Federal and Provincial. This approach is rapidly gaining support in the academy as well as the SCC. It gives us back our independence and control and allows us to develop solutions to the problems we our dealing with such as poverty, suicide, addiction, loss of culture etc... It is naive to think that a 'white man' solution will fix our problems. We need a Native solution that can help reshape our great society. I'm not advocating for sucession of all the Native reserves at all, just allowing them to exist and operate as a third branch within the current federal structure.

I uderstand what your saying, but I think it would be grossly unfair to other minorities in this nation unless your willing to open up arms of government for other minority groups. Unless I misunderstand your point, your making a native government arm that would have equivalent rights and processes to the provincial governments, which would be fine if the natives were then willing to pay into equilization, and pay for thier own healthcare, infrastructure and education, and give up current payments from the government. Native revenues would then be based on resources, taxation and money raised on reserve lands. Combine that with the ensuing supreme courst battle that would be based around Native land claims, all treaties would also have to be submitted to the supreme courts in a direct fight with both the governments on a provincial and federal level.

I think that another thing that would have to happen before the Natives were given an arm of a government was that there would have to be a strong audit concerning how all of the money paid out was spent, the Native councils would have to move to oversight and transparancy.

Just spitballing before I go to the game.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by daveyboy

I think an ideal solution would be for aboriginal government to be recognized as a third branch of government along side Federal and Provincial.

That third branch would be municipal, and aren't native reserves already governed separate from that of cities/towns and municipal districts?