[PGT] Flames 1 - Oilers 4

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

So…

- “system” is perfect for reducing goals against
- failure to score has nothing to do with “system”

One of the worst defensive teams now has the players to defend, but in light of reduced offence, don’t have the players to score?

That’s not pitchforks, friend, it’s trying to discuss whether “system” is enough

Hint : see scoreboard

Hint: scoreboard proves my point too

Again they get more scoring chances than the other team most nights...score less goals

Same system with a couple more guys who could bury would make a world of difference IMO

[nik-]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Hint: scoreboard proves my point too

Again they get more scoring chances than the other team most nights...score less goals

So again, maybe the scoring chances stat doesn't mean a whole lot. Not all scoring chances are created equally. This is a soft perimeter team tossing in muffins from the edges. Rack up those scoring chances!

[Savvy27]

The goalie is good and the defence is good, even if offensively anemic. Those, along with a very good coach in Sutter gets the team to a level where they aren't going to be better or worse than a bubble team. To get better they need to change up the forwards dramatically.

I'm not worried that management is under any illusions that they can improve without big changes to the top end of the forwards. Whether Treliving and co. are going to do a good job is a bit concerning, but the need for an upgrade is so obvious that Sutter has been publicly stating it in the middle of a the season so I have trouble imagining a quiet off season. One of the silver linings since Sutter came along is that the team is no longer wildly inconsistent... they are consistently able to suppress shots and chances, but aren't able to score 3 goals a game.

Fair enough to those who wanted the shake up last year (turns out you were right), but I think it's unavoidable now. Should be an interesting off-season.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I'm looking up north, and I see a team that's 30-17-2. Where's the losing attitude?

Have you looked in the last 15 years as well? Or just at this outlier?

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by nik-

So again, maybe the scoring chances stat doesn't mean a whole lot. Not all scoring chances are created equally. This is a soft perimeter team tossing in muffins from the edges. Rack up those scoring chances!

Backlund doesn't miss an empty net every single ####ing game?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by nik-

So again, maybe the scoring chances stat doesn't mean a whole lot. Not all scoring chances are created equally. This is a soft perimeter team tossing in muffins from the edges. Rack up those scoring chances!

Exactly. This is getting exhausting

[soulchoice]

Jeez, what a train wreck of a phone call from that caller Dave with Steinberg. Axe to grind with the radio station. Love how Pat, after trying to figure out this persons point, at one instance said "so, don't listen to the station". Good for you Pat. You were trying to engage in the conversation, however he had zero point to the purpose of his take.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Exactly. This is getting exhausting

go back to the Bennett thread then

I am literally saying the Flames need some better offensive players to play this system effectively

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by dino7c

1 playoff appearance in 15 years is likely what he is talking about

Okay... so the 2007 Oilers had a losing attitude? The same team that had just gone to the SCF the year prior? Or... maybe... they subtracted talent in the name of Chris Pronger..?

Last year's Oilers were 37-25-9 by the way. They were firmly in a playoff spot and while it was hilarious to watch their goaltending collapse against the Blackhawks and their lack of depth scoring fail them... that's not a losing attitude.

The Oilers for all their ####ups are the kind of organization the Flames should strive to be.

really they won a lottery that has moved them from terrible to mediocre

They won a lottery by having higher chances at winning a lottery by... losing. Which, again, has not been detrimental to the successful development of individuals on their team.

You look at their roster, and "losing attitude" isn't what ails them. A lack of talent in their bottom nine, maybe.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Have you looked in the last 15 years as well? Or just at this outlier?

I have looked at the last fifteen years, yes. Where they've won as many playoff series as the Flames and look to win a lot more going forward.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by dino7c

go back to the Bennett thread then

I am literally saying the Flames need some better offensive players to play this system effectively

Go where and why? Any team with better players should play any system better

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Okay... so the 2007 Oilers had a losing attitude? The same team that had just gone to the SCF the year prior? Or... maybe... they subtracted talent in the name of Chris Pronger..?

Last year's Oilers were 37-25-9 by the way. They were firmly in a playoff spot and while it was hilarious to watch their goaltending collapse against the Blackhawks and their lack of depth scoring fail them... that's not a losing attitude.

The Oilers for all their ####ups are the kind of organization the Flames should strive to be.



They won a lottery by having higher chances at winning a lottery by... losing. Which, again, has not been detrimental to the successful development of individuals on their team.

You look at their roster, and "losing attitude" isn't what ails them. A lack of talent in their bottom nine, maybe.

They had a less than 1% chance of winning those 4 lotteries combined

They are also being carried by a 39 year old goalie and are nowhere near a cup...I will pick another franchise thanks

[Savvy27]

Originally Posted by dino7c

go back to the Bennett thread then



I am literally saying the Flames need some better offensive players to play this system effectively

I'm with you on this one. The Flames have improved in a lot of areas.

Since the switch to Sutter, Flames have improved in league ranking (these stats are from mid week):
goals for per game 23rd to 15th
goals against 19th to 14th,
penalty kill 16th to 13th
shots for per game 21st to 11th
shots against per game 22nd to 3rd
corsi 11th to 6th
5v5 shooting percentage 18th to 12th.

5v5 save percentage went from 11th to 29th, but as you've mentioned, Markstrom has improved dramatically.

They really do need to improve scoring because they are still just barely in the top half of the league, but I don't think there are a ton of problems outside of that.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by memphusk

Of course he could, But it won't be him. He looks homesick. The fun isn't there anymore.

Yea obviously trade him if he won’t re-sign this offseason but if he is willing to stay at a reasonable price/term, keep him.

[Dion]

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

I'm with you on this one. The Flames have improved in a lot of areas.

Since the switch to Sutter, Flames have improved in league ranking (these stats are from mid week):
goals for per game 23rd to 15th
goals against 19th to 14th,
penalty kill 16th to 13th
shots for per game 21st to 11th
shots against per game 22nd to 3rd
corsi 11th to 6th
5v5 shooting percentage 18th to 12th.

5v5 save percentage went from 11th to 29th, but as you've mentioned, Markstrom has improved dramatically.

They really do need to improve scoring because they are still just barely in the top half of the league, but I don't think there are a ton of problems outside of that.

The conversation is slightly more complex. When the same old HOFer we all know and love, Iggy, played, some years he got over 90 points and some years he got less than 70

Think of Sutter’s lens and what he thinks they need to play his system

[Savvy27]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

The conversation is slightly more complex. When the same old HOFer we all know and love, Iggy, played, some years he got over 90 points and some years he got less than 70

Think of Sutter’s lens and what he thinks they need to play his system

Sorry, I don't follow your meaning?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

Sorry, I don't follow your meaning?

In line with the idea that the system hampers scoring, and perhaps the league has changed. This team doesn’t need (this system + better scorers)

Teams that win do not have guys like Gaudreau, Tkachuk, etc. ringing it around the perimeter and blasting it in from the point this much

I’ve watched Toronto and Florida. They skate right up and through your front door, scoring off the rush.

[Savvy27]

Oh, I see what you mean.

From what I can tell, the players dump the puck in whenever they are attacking and facing anything less favorable than a 2v2. It's conservative and cuts down on transition attacks going the other way on turnovers, but it's not like they aren't supposed to try and create scoring chances when they have a 3 on 2 or even a 2 on 2. I'm convinced that when Sutter is talking about the Flames playing slow, part of it is that by the time they move the puck up the ice, they rarely have a goid attack opportunity. I really don't think his goal is to not attack on the rush. If he coached Toronto they would still be scoring on the rush because they are better at it... he wouldn't be coaching them to not attack.

As for in zone rimming it around the boards, the purpose is to force the defence to adjust to different puck positions by moving it side to side and low to high. Eventually though, players need to get the puck off the wall by making a play. Since they increased the size of the offensive zone, coaches have changed to moving the puck away from the corners and up to the top of the zone. Peter Laviolette did an interesting video about this. Again, the purpose isn't to get low quality scoring chances or kill time, it's to try and break down defensive structure and I don't think it's unique to Sutter or poor offensive teams. You could see it working on some shifts tonight, when Mangiapane was skating towards the point and did quick cutbacks. They need more of that.

I really think that a lot of people are mistaken about Sutter. He brought in Tanguay and Huselius and Bertuzzi when he was in a position to make those calls. He appreciates skill and he has commented on a few occassions that it's really hard to try and win 2-1 night in and night out. Especially in this division where almost every team has 1 or 2 top players scoring way more than the Flames top players.

[united]

Gaudreau and Monahan have now played ten games apart under Sutter. Obtaining as much information as possible in this regard will be vital to the Flames' off-season decision making, of course also factoring in each of the players' long-term desires. Here is the snapshot, noting that with under 200 5v5 minutes you should expect some variance and fluctuation and should contextualize accordingly with your own eye test...but it's a start. Factor in level of linemates and opposition as you see fit, too, noting those typically offset for the most part.

All numbers courtesy of Natural Stat Trick.



My own observations:
- Both players have responded relatively well to their respective roles and linemates.
- Gaudreau having a centreman who is better defensively has allowed him more room to roam defensively and in transition, and Lindholm's willingness to drive the middle lane to the near post has opened space for Gaudreau to operate above the dots in the offensive zone which is where he's at his most dangerous. No change in his lack of compete for 50-50 pucks and fly-bys, but Lindholm is far better suited to support his weaknesses there.
- Monahan has been quietly solid defensively while facing a reduced and appropriate level of competition. Offensively, his willingness to go to the paint is admirable, however he is still a step behind in transition support which, as the centreman, puts a tremendous amount of pressure on his wingers as they get pushed outside the dot lanes. 10 shots on goal in 10 games is very concerning and something to keep an eye on - an early indication he isn't able to drive offence which is okay as a winger but tough as a centreman who is paid as one who can.

Hopefully we see them apart the remainder of the season and ideally with a mix of different linemates as well to expand our database of knowledge. Putting them back together for that Montreal game was odd - maybe Sutter wanted to see the legend that is the ineffective duo of Big Game Sean and John.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Ya Darryl was brought in to save the season and to appease season ticket holders.

No I don't believe that at all. They knew the season was done. They brought him in to observe this year. . Sad to think any one thought it was to save this year . It's about the next 3 on his contract