Coaching, leadership and a top 5 list

[Red]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Granlund never looked like a star. Poirier never looked like a star. Kobasew looked like a star one preseason and that's about it. Ryder was always a long shot. Sorry if you got your hopes up over average prospects. Bennett may still turn into a valuable player. Baertschi I'll give you, he showed some flashes early on. Not sure what your point is bringing up these players.

Czarnik was a low risk, zero acquisition cost gamble. It didn't pay off but I still feel it was worth it. Same with Foo. The organization should always be looking for find guys for free. There's no problem with these types of signings, they did not set us back at all. It's a roll of the dice, just like a draft pick.

Who said we're attached to Dube and Mangiapane? They're not untouchable IMO. But neither are they premium assets. They are trending to be complimentary players. They could be useful to keep because they're currently quite cheap and if you wanna build a contender in the cap world its useful to have some useful pieces on cheap deals. I wouldn't be actively looking to move them because of that. Dube brings speed and skating that we lack up front and if he continues to develop he'll be useful because of that speed. Mangiapane is fearless and battles and we need more players who are willing to battle.

You wanna get bigger and stronger? Gaudreau is the guy to trade. I dunno your posts are a little all over the place. I agree we need to get bigger and stronger but EVERY team is looking for big, skilled, physical, fast players. The teams that have them aren't giving them away for nothing. If you wanna change the makeup of the team then you trade a core piece. If you wanna get bigger and stronger then you trade the weak/soft Gaudreau while he still has premium value. That's this summer.

You know what FDW? It sounds like something Treliving would say. And I can't disagree with any of it because there is a lot truth there. But in the end what does that get me?
A crappy team that will be hopeless in April.

So whats the takeaway here? Maybe hoarding guys for potential or trying to find a flea market gem by going after all the young free agents isn't the right way to build a team? Need size? Put that as a priority #1.

As for Johnny. I feel like we would be surprised at the return we would get. Do playoff teams really want a guy like him? Maybe if he comes on the cheap.

And for the record. Somehow all other teams are finding ways to get these bolded players. Why is that? Is it because we value puck skills more than size? I don't have the answer, but I am starting to wonder if that's what it is. Tre overlooking size for some useless puck skills.

[Kovaz]

Originally Posted by Red

You know what FDW? It sounds like something Treliving would say. And I can't disagree with any of it because there is a lot truth there. But in the end what does that get me?
A crappy team that will be hopeless in April.

So whats the takeaway here? Maybe hoarding guys for potential or trying to find a flea market gem by going after all the young free agents isn't the right way to build a team? Need size? Put that as a priority #1.

As for Johnny. I feel like we would be surprised at the return we would get. Do playoff teams really want a guy like him? Maybe if he comes on the cheap.

And for the record. Somehow all other teams are finding ways to get these bolded players. Why is that? Is it because we value puck skills more than size? I don't have the answer, but I am starting to wonder if that's what it is. Tre overlooking size for some useless puck skills.

Or, maybe the late rounds of the draft are a complete crapshoot and you never know which players will turn out. 6'4" sure-thing prospects go in the top-10. And it's not like we're wasting our high picks on small players. We've picked 6'2" Valimaki, 6'2" Tkachuk, 6'1" Bennett and 6'2" Monahan in recent-ish years with mid-high firsts.

It's just the reality that big players available late tend to be not as good. Would you rather have #54 overall Hunter Smith or #56 overall Dube? #67 overall Keegan Kanzig or #66 overall Adam Fox?

In 2015 we picked 6'3" Pavel Karnaukhov in the 5th who turned into nothing, then 5'10" Mangiapane in the 6th who's played 100 games, then 6'7" Riley Bruce in the 7th who turned into nothing.

Since 2014, we've picked:
Hunter Smith
Brandon Hickey
Adam Ollas Mattsson
Austin Carroll
Pavel Karnaukhov
Riley Bruce
Mitchell Mattson
Eetu Tuulola
Stepan Falkovsky
Adam Ruzicka
Martin Pospisil

that are all 6'2" or taller, and have 0 games to show for it. Meanwhile:

6'1" Andersson has 143 games
6' Kylington has 79 games
5'10" Mangiapane has 100 games
5'11 Dube has 53 games
5'11 Fox has 50 games

And other small players like Phillips, Zavgorodniy, and Pettersen look more promising than any of our large picks.

Would you rather have a 20% chance of Andrew Mangiapane or a 1% chance of Jamie Benn? Easy to say Benn, but pick players like that every time and you can easily go a decade without getting one NHLer. Most 6'2" BCHLers who can't skate don't go anywhere for a reason.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

Or, maybe the late rounds of the draft are a complete crapshoot and you never know which players will turn out. 6'4" sure-thing prospects go in the top-10. And it's not like we're wasting our high picks on small players. We've picked 6'2" Valimaki, 6'2" Tkachuk, 6'1" Bennett and 6'2" Monahan in recent-ish years with mid-high firsts.

It's just the reality that big players available late tend to be not as good. Would you rather have #54 overall Hunter Smith or #56 overall Dube? #67 overall Keegan Kanzig or #66 overall Adam Fox?

In 2015 we picked 6'3" Pavel Karnaukhov in the 5th who turned into nothing, then 5'10" Mangiapane in the 6th who's played 100 games, then 6'7" Riley Bruce in the 7th who turned into nothing.

Since 2014, we've picked:
Hunter Smith
Brandon Hickey
Adam Ollas Mattsson
Austin Carroll
Pavel Karnaukhov
Riley Bruce
Mitchell Mattson
Eetu Tuulola
Stepan Falkovsky
Adam Ruzicka
Martin Pospisil

that are all 6'2" or taller, and have 0 games to show for it. Meanwhile:

6'1" Andersson has 143 games
6' Kylington has 79 games
5'10" Mangiapane has 100 games
5'11 Dube has 53 games
5'11 Fox has 50 games

And other small players like Phillips, Zavgorodniy, and Pettersen look more promising than any of our large picks.

Would you rather have a 20% chance of Andrew Mangiapane or a 1% chance of Jamie Benn? Easy to say Benn, but pick players like that every time and you can easily go a decade without getting one NHLer. Most 6'2" BCHLers who can't skate don't go anywhere for a reason.

I wasn't just talking about drafting. We didn't draft Foo, Czarnik or Ryan.

Just trying to figure out why the rest of the league has found a way to find complete hockey players while we can't. We keep going after the smaller guys for some reason.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Red

I wasn't just talking about drafting. We didn't draft Foo, Czarnik or Ryan.

Just trying to figure out why the rest of the league has found a way to find complete hockey players while we can't. We keep going after the smaller guys for some reason.

Both your assertions are incorrect
The Flames haven’t just gone after small players. They have traded for, signed and drafted big players
And your assertion that all other teams are able to find big, skilled, physical and fast players is also false. Those are the holy grails of hockey players.

[GioforPM]

The forwards on the Blues are pretty average sized. FWIW of course.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Both your assertions are incorrect
The Flames haven’t just gone after small players. They have traded for, signed and drafted big players
And your assertion that all other teams are able to find big, skilled, physical and fast players is also false. Those are the holy grails of hockey players.

Why the hyperboles? Of course they aren't actively skipping over the big guys in favor of small ones. But Tre has brought quite a few of them.
Look at out top 6 Fs and 4d. Is there a softer team out there? Please explain why after all these years this slowly turned in to the softest team in the NHL?

I think it's Tre undervaluing of size. Someone said that Ryan was a great UFA signing. I disagree. He is great for what he is, but he is not what this team needs. A 3/4th line C with no grit.
Just like I mentioned earlier about Brayden Point. Great player, but not what we need here.

[Red]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The forwards on the Blues are pretty average sized. FWIW of course.

The Blues are a very large team. Their D is possibly the biggest in the NHL and their forwards have plenty of grit. Especially in the top 6 F, where it really counts.

[dino7c]

Three biggest/toughest teams in our division are

SJ, ANA, LA

Flames could use a bit more size but skill is far more important. If Gaudreau and Monahan were anywhere near last year the Flames would be running away in the west.

Seriously despite such poor seasons from top players they are still right there with everyone other than the Blues

[Red]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Three biggest/toughest teams in our division are

SJ, ANA, LA

Flames could use a bit more size but skill is far more important. If Gaudreau and Monahan were anywhere near last year the Flames would be running away in the west.

Seriously despite such poor seasons from top players they are still right there with everyone other than the Blues

And then what? Out in 5 again?

2-12 in the last 3 playoff rounds. Not a coincidence.

[blender]

Originally Posted by Red

I wasn't just talking about drafting. We didn't draft Foo, Czarnik or Ryan.

Just trying to figure out why the rest of the league has found a way to find complete hockey players while we can't. We keep going after the smaller guys for some reason.

But it's not the rest of the league. It's not like the Flames have some useless roster of undersized players and are buried at the bottom of the league. They have a competitive team with some obvious flaws, and some less obvious flaws. Adding some size that can skate would definitely help, but 25 fan bases could say the same.

It like complaining that Monahan isn't as good as Barkov. Well Barkov wasn't available. We got Monahan and he's a hell of a good hockey player. Evey team in the league would bump one of their players for him and make room under the cap today if they could. But here he's a soft garbage man that doesn't compete, can't skate, whatever. Its bizarre.

[BigRed]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

Most 6'2" BCHLers who can't skate don't go anywhere for a reason.

SEE: Chucko, Kris

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Red

Why the hyperboles? Of course they aren't actively skipping over the big guys in favor of small ones. But Tre has brought quite a few of them.
Look at out top 6 Fs and 4d. Is there a softer team out there? Please explain why after all these years this slowly turned in to the softest team in the NHL?

I think it's Tre undervaluing of size. Someone said that Ryan was a great UFA signing. I disagree. He is great for what he is, but he is not what this team needs. A 3/4th line C with no grit.
Just like I mentioned earlier about Brayden Point. Great player, but not what we need here.

Define soft
Is it just size?
There are plenty of smaller players with grit
It’s about being committed to winning
I don’t know how you are defining soft to say if other teams are softer or not
I wish we had more played like Derek Ryan

[Red]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Define soft
Is it just size?
There are plenty of smaller players with grit
It’s about being committed to winning
I don’t know how you are defining soft to say if other teams are softer or not
I wish we had more played like Derek Ryan

I didn't think this team's lack of toughness was even in question. If you don't think this team is soft then we will not come to an agreement. We watch a different game all together.

[playmaker]

Originally Posted by dino7c

If Gaudreau and Monahan were anywhere near last year the Flames would be running away in the west.

It's not just Gaudreau and Monahan. Backlund and Gio aren't anywhere near last year either. That's 4 out of 6 core players underperforming, hence I'm very surprised we're still sitting on a playoff spot.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Red

I didn't think this team's lack of toughness was even in question. If you don't think this team is soft then we will not come to an agreement. We watch a different game all together.

You said they are the softest
By what definition?
I think they are mentally soft
But you appear to be talking about something different

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Red

The Blues are a very large team. Their D is possibly the biggest in the NHL and their forwards have plenty of grit. Especially in the top 6 F, where it really counts.

I said forwards weren’t big. Go look it up. Their regulars are 6.0 for the most part. They have a couple bottom feeders who are big - Brouwer, De La Rose, Sanford. Their impact forwards are smaller, like ROR, Perron, Schenn, Schwartz, all under 6.2. Their D is another story, but we were specifically talking forwards.

And I wouldn’t say they are especially fast either. So no, they don’t have big fast skilled forwards. There’s lots of ways to build a team. Vegas went to the finals with James Neal and Nosek as their only guys up front over 6.2. But they did have speed. Washington was pretty big up front, and they obviously had a great front line. But not a huge D corps.

Calgary doesn’t need bigger forwards, or even faster forwards. What they need are guys who want too win more IMO.

[Mattman]

Bold Take
This might be Brad Treliving's last trade deadline as the GM of the Calgary Flames.

[powderjunkie]

Sutter's game changing move was Kipper. Everything else worked out to roughly a wash (lots of shrewd moves, lots of blunders). Maybe a slight net positive when you consider Gio, though I'm not sure anyone deserves credit for his success other than Gio himself.

It took a decade to find another reliable goaltender (not an uncommon problem). This is the first time since Kipper we'll go into the playoffs without a huge question mark in net.

The current group of skaters have bigger flaws and structural problems than Sutter's teams, but I also think they are structured better and closer to legitimate contention...if you'll pardon the contradictory terms. Brad finally has the C's in place to build out from, even if everything else is a mess right now. Sutter's rosters always made sense, but lacked the necessary quality at C.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Mattman

Bold Take
This might be Brad Treliving's last trade deadline as the GM of the Calgary Flames.

As he’ll get promoted to President of Hockey Operations and Craig Conroy gets promoted to GM?

[dino7c]

I didn't see the Flames getting pushed around in the playoffs last season...I saw them get outplayed

That said they had the lead in the final minutes of three of the five games, a top six forward or two that PLAYS BIG could have made all the difference