Coaching, leadership and a top 5 list

[Manhattanboy]

I am not necessarily calling for his replacement. I just question the timing. Why now?

[Stanley]

It's not gonna happen but dangit I'd love to see what a Gallant could do with this team down the stretch...

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

I am not necessarily calling for his replacement. I just question the timing. Why now?

It's pretty typical for teams to avoid having GMs on short-term deals, including to avoid short-term thinking.
If you tell a guy he has one year to justify keeping his job - what type of long-term perspective do you think he's going to apply to decision making?
He needed a new contract.
He got a new contract.
Nothing weird about the timing at all.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I thought that was more feaster - at least the glib, articulate part. He was very media friendly. I don't think they took him seriously though.

I think Feaster always had an image problem.

[Red]

Tre's team is hopeless in the playoffs. Doesn't matter how he got there, good trades, bad trades, good and bad RFA deals and bad UFA ones, ultimately you take time to build something that will give you results.
No team is ever really finished building. But it's safe to say that after 6 years this should be close to what Tre envisioned as a good team. It's on him that he built a team full of soft and undersized players. He took the "new NHL is fast and skilled size be damned" too literally and too early. 2-12 in the last playoff 3 series and looked terrible in the process.

Heard on the Fan that Tre loves big players. Was shocked to hear that because he keeps bringing small guys like Foo, Czarnik, Mangi, Dube, Ryan etc. With Johnny on the team there is no room for more small forwards.

I like Tre as a person. Good guy, seems smart and focused, but I feel his thoughts on how the game is right now are incorrect. His results prove that Sutter was a much better GM.
I know Sutter had his issues, but his teams were competitive in a much stronger West and actually won some playoff games. No freebies.

With a contract extension we are almost guaranteed to see a few more years of Tre. I have no problem with it, but I hope he is starting to "get it". You need balls to win in the playoffs. Get guys with balls and heart, no more 5.6" speed/skill projects.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Red

It's on him that he built a team full of soft and undersized players. He took the "new NHL is fast and skilled size be damned" too literally and too early. 2-12 in the last playoff 3 series and looked terrible in the process.

Heard on the Fan that Tre loves big players. Was shocked to hear that because he keeps bringing small guys like Foo, Czarnik, Mangi, Dube, Ryan etc. With Johnny on the team there is no room for more small forwards.

Every team would prefer to have big, fast, physical, strong, skilled players over small, soft, skilled players. That's why they are hard to get.

He's given the scouts the freedom to take the best player available. We've made some astute picks in terms of undersized forwards. Telling the scouts to only draft big, strong guys and you'll get more busts like Burke/Sutter did. I'd rather they hit on guys like Gaudreau and Dube rather than take big busts.

It made no sense to deal Gaudreau until now. He's obviously been trying to add size, grit and physicality (tried to get Reeves, Neal for Lucic, Kadri had some bite). He traded the butter soft Hamilton for a gritty complete forward in Lindholm.

He's trying. I know trying isn't enough for some of you, you just wanna rage because you're frustrated the team isn't further along.

This summer will be a big one. He'll have the opportunity to deal Gaudreau and reshape the team identity a bit. But you'll have to wait until the offseason to see any franchise altering trades.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by Red

Tre's team is hopeless in the playoffs. Doesn't matter how he got there, good trades, bad trades, good and bad RFA deals and bad UFA ones, ultimately you take time to build something that will give you results.
No team is ever really finished building. But it's safe to say that after 6 years this should be close to what Tre envisioned as a good team. It's on him that he built a team full of soft and undersized players. He took the "new NHL is fast and skilled size be damned" too literally and too early. 2-12 in the last playoff 3 series and looked terrible in the process.

Heard on the Fan that Tre loves big players. Was shocked to hear that because he keeps bringing small guys like Foo, Czarnik, Mangi, Dube, Ryan etc. With Johnny on the team there is no room for more small forwards.

I like Tre as a person. Good guy, seems smart and focused, but I feel his thoughts on how the game is right now are incorrect. His results prove that Sutter was a much better GM.
I know Sutter had his issues, but his teams were competitive in a much stronger West and actually won some playoff games. No freebies.

With a contract extension we are almost guaranteed to see a few more years of Tre. I have no problem with it, but I hope he is starting to "get it". You need balls to win in the playoffs. Get guys with balls and heart, no more 5.6" speed/skill projects.

Sutter's Flames were objectively better than BTs. There was just so many good teams at the same time in our division. That seriously was like a golden age for the Pacific/Northwest. BT just hangs on because our conference is garbage outside of St. Louis now.

[Red]

Not raging. First post since the game on Saturday.

My point is this, don't waste assets or cap space for small guys. Just move on and look for what we really need. This is more about now, not the draft. Example, if Point is made available by TB, look elsewhere. We don't need another little guy.

And I am not so convinced about dealing Johnny. He is (was) special. He makes the guys around him better. Maybe it would be easier to get bigger players to compliment him? And I am not talking about stars like Stone. Maybe just average guys that can bust for him and hit the net from time to time. Look what McD does with slugs like Maroon or Kassian. I know he tries with Neal and Brouwer. But obviously both were over the hill. Look for someone younger. If Johnny is the only little guy maybe he can flourish again.

In the end Tre is not going to have a large team if he continues to acquire small players. They won't grow. Mangi and Dube look to be promising picks by Tre, but are they really making the Flames that much better? Objectively looking, they are pretty meh most nights.
I guess we wait and see if they will ever be impactful in the playoffs.

[Kovaz]

I have a hard time blaming Treliving for guys like Gaudreau, Monahan, and Backlund pulling a disappearing act this season. For better or worse, that's the core he inherited and tried to build around. I highly doubt he still has a job if he had dumped them for futures around 2016 or 17 while missing the playoffs.

[blender]

Have to agree with the comments on the quality of the 08-10 Flames compared to current. Despite the regular season success last year, I agree that this current group couldn't carry the jockstrap of the Sutter/Keenan teams. Not even close IMO. I feel like those teams are criminally underrated here amidst all the talk of consistent mediocrity. In particular the year that they lost in 6 the dynasty-to-be Hawks while being devastated by injuries and the heartbreak of failing to go up 3-1 against the Sharks with 6 seconds to play and then losing in 7 have obscured our view of how good those teams were.
05/06 squad was pretty good too.


Alas...

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Red

Not raging. First post since the game on Saturday.

My point is this, don't waste assets or cap space for small guys. Just move on and look for what we really need. This is more about now, not the draft. Example, if Point is made available by TB, look elsewhere. We don't need another little guy.

And I am not so convinced about dealing Johnny. He is (was) special. He makes the guys around him better. Maybe it would be easier to get bigger players to compliment him? And I am not talking about stars like Stone. Maybe just average guys that can bust for him and hit the net from time to time. Look what McD does with slugs like Maroon or Kassian. I know he tries with Neal and Brouwer. But obviously both were over the hill. Look for someone younger. If Johnny is the only little guy maybe he can flourish again.

In the end Tre is not going to have a large team if he continues to acquire small players. They won't grow. Mangi and Dube look to be promising picks by Tre, but are they really making the Flames that much better? Objectively looking, they are pretty meh most nights.
I guess we wait and see if they will ever be impactful in the playoffs.

Not every young player is an instant star. Patience needs to be had with rookies like Mangiapane and Dube. It's frustrating to see how little patience some people have with rookies (not you in particular but I've seen it a lot on this board.)

Johnny won't ever be the only small guy considering we have Mangiapane, Dube, Ryan plus guys like Phillips, Zavgorodny, etc on the way.

Continues to acquire small players? What small players has he acquired? Czarnik was sought after by over half the league if you put any stock into the rumours at the time. And its not like they've been force feeding him top 6 ice time ever. Ryan? Probably one of the Treliving's best UFA signings. I don't see any history of Treliving favouring small players.

I'm down on Gaudreau, that should be obvious. He certainly isn't making the players around him better this year, quite the opposite in fact, he's been dragging down his line mates 5 on 5 all year. His finishing has been poor, his passing has been poor, his puck possession has been dreadful. Given his contract status, Tkachuk's contract status I'd say he's very quickly playing his way off the team. There aren't years to wait and hope he rebounds, the tough decisions have to be made soon.

Tkachuk and Lindholm are your key guys to build around up front. I think Monahan is a keeper. I think Dube and Mangiapane will continue to develop into nice complimentary 2nd/3rd line pieces. On defense we're in fantastic shape long term. Goaltending seems like its in a good place long term as well.

The team isn't really that far off contending, Treliving has some fantastic pieces to continue to build around. Turn Gaudreau into someone who actually makes a difference 5 on 5 and we'd be a far more dangerous team.

[rooster]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Despite his record the longer Ward has been Head Coach the more I'm not sold on him. So many horrible decisions.

There's upgrades out there and if Treliving hasn't already talked to them he better be now. Hoping they're still available or other options become available in the summer isn't smart.

Let's just hope Treliving has the brains to interview more then one guy this time! How F*&^%$g stupid a mistake that was.

[rooster]

Originally Posted by Wiggum_PI

As awful as Feaster was, the team he built still made it further in the playoffs than the Treliving builds ever have. I really don't get why people rate Treliving so high around here, very mediocre GM.

I think they made it further in the playoffs because Hartley was better then the duds Treliving has picked for head coaches.

[rooster]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Meh: They won the round under Treliving's tenure. But moreover, as of Sept. 2013, the year before, Burke was pulling a lot of, if not most of, the strings, so whatever happened that year I'm not giving Feaster a lot of credit for. I give Feaster credit for signing Hudler, and for drafting Gaudreau (though I understand that was mainly a staff decision). But his lack of drafting and crappy returns for Iginla, Jaybo and Reg put the team into a huge hole for Treliving.

You can blame Invisiginla for the return in his trade. He screwed the Flames over royaly on that situation.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by rooster

I think they made it further in the playoffs because Hartley was better then the duds Treliving has picked for head coaches.

Hartley is so good he hasn’t sniffed the NHL since he left. And not for lack of trying.

[rooster]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Hartley is so good he hasn’t sniffed the NHL since he left. And not for lack of trying.

I guess he got results but got them maybe not the right way. His treatment of players is no longer acceptable.

[TheSquatch]

If, and it is an "if", if Sutter built a better team than BT it's only because he cared nothing at all for the future - it isn't totally incorrect to say that BT is still undoing damage Sutter did (by mortgaging the future and picking so poorly at so many drafts, don't forget the Kyle Greentree era Flames). Sutter at the poker table:

"All in."

"Darryl, we haven't dealt yet."

"ALL IN."

"Uh, okay."


I mean, that's not team building, that's just making ownership's stupid mandate of "every year playoffs or bust!".

I'm not thrilled with a few of BT's moves here, I'm not giving him a pass, but saying that Darryl was a great GM is just wrong imho. We got boring, talentless hockey for years, and picks traded for "legit guys" for so long that the mess Feaster walked into was utterly unmanageable.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by rooster

You can blame Invisiginla for the return in his trade. He screwed the Flames over royaly on that situation.

You can blame the owners for not allowing a rebuild sooner.

You can blame Feaster for not being intellectually honest enough to realize we needed to rebuild sooner.

Those are the biggest two to blame for Iginla's value. That Iginla decided to exercise his NTC is his right. I do think it was a bit annoying that he said, oh these 4 teams and then forced his way onto one of them. But that is as much on Feaster for not getting him to waive ahead of time for any of those 4 teams.

Feaster was a frickin disaster. Feaster should've sold at the deadline multiple years and didn't. Worst GM in my time of following the Flames, worse than Button even.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Not every young player is an instant star. Patience needs to be had with rookies like Mangiapane and Dube. It's frustrating to see how little patience some people have with rookies (not you in particular but I've seen it a lot on this board.)

Johnny won't ever be the only small guy considering we have Mangiapane, Dube, Ryan plus guys like Phillips, Zavgorodny, etc on the way.

Continues to acquire small players? What small players has he acquired? Czarnik was sought after by over half the league if you put any stock into the rumours at the time. And its not like they've been force feeding him top 6 ice time ever. Ryan? Probably one of the Treliving's best UFA signings. I don't see any history of Treliving favouring small players.

I'm down on Gaudreau, that should be obvious. He certainly isn't making the players around him better this year, quite the opposite in fact, he's been dragging down his line mates 5 on 5 all year. His finishing has been poor, his passing has been poor, his puck possession has been dreadful. Given his contract status, Tkachuk's contract status I'd say he's very quickly playing his way off the team. There aren't years to wait and hope he rebounds, the tough decisions have to be made soon.

Tkachuk and Lindholm are your key guys to build around up front. I think Monahan is a keeper. I think Dube and Mangiapane will continue to develop into nice complimentary 2nd/3rd line pieces. On defense we're in fantastic shape long term. Goaltending seems like its in a good place long term as well.

The team isn't really that far off contending, Treliving has some fantastic pieces to continue to build around. Turn Gaudreau into someone who actually makes a difference 5 on 5 and we'd be a far more dangerous team.

We are not being impatient. Realistic is more like it.

Sam Bennet was going to be a star.
Baertschi was for sure. So was Grandlund So was Kabasew. And Poirier ,Ryder and on and on.
Mangi and Dube look like NHLers, but they may not be more than spare parts here or on some other team.
But that's not really my point. My point is that Tre should work on trading these smaller players with upside for bigger versions. Dube looks promising and may be a good trade chip to get a guy like Josh Anderson for example. Im not suggesting that this is a one for one trade, I don't really know what it would take. But you get my point, ship the smaller guys out for the guys you really want. Don't get stuck in the "unrealized potential" mindset or be afraid to lose a trade. It's not about winning trades, it's about building a good team. And if the template is to get bigger (IMO it should be) then you should strive towards that. Instead Tre brings guys like Czarnik. Complete waste of a roster spot and more importantly cap space. Same with Foo, but he was a 2 way at least. And now we are talking about Phillips? And we are getting attached to guys like Dube and Mangi? This needs to stop or we will never see round 2 of playoffs again.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Red

We are not being impatient. Realistic is more like it.

Sam Bennet was going to be a star.
Baertschi was for sure. So was Grandlund So was Kabasew. And Poirier ,Ryder and on and on.
Mangi and Dube look like NHLers, but they may not be more than spare parts here or on some other team.
But that's not really my point. My point is that Tre should work on trading these smaller players with upside for bigger versions. Dube looks promising and may be a good trade chip to get a guy like Josh Anderson for example. Im not suggesting that this is a one for one trade, I don't really know what it would take. But you get my point, ship the smaller guys out for the guys you really want. Don't get stuck in the "unrealized potential" mindset or be afraid to lose a trade. It's not about winning trades, it's about building a good team. And if the template is to get bigger (IMO it should be) then you should strive towards that. Instead Tre brings guys like Czarnik. Complete waste of a roster spot and more importantly cap space. Same with Foo, but he was a 2 way at least. And now we are talking about Phillips? And we are getting attached to guys like Dube and Mangi? This needs to stop or we will never see round 2 of playoffs again.

Granlund never looked like a star. Poirier never looked like a star. Kobasew looked like a star one preseason and that's about it. Ryder was always a long shot. Sorry if you got your hopes up over average prospects. Bennett may still turn into a valuable player. Baertschi I'll give you, he showed some flashes early on. Not sure what your point is bringing up these players.

Czarnik was a low risk, zero acquisition cost gamble. It didn't pay off but I still feel it was worth it. Same with Foo. The organization should always be looking for find guys for free. There's no problem with these types of signings, they did not set us back at all. It's a roll of the dice, just like a draft pick.

Who said we're attached to Dube and Mangiapane? They're not untouchable IMO. But neither are they premium assets. They are trending to be complimentary players. They could be useful to keep because they're currently quite cheap and if you wanna build a contender in the cap world its useful to have some useful pieces on cheap deals. I wouldn't be actively looking to move them because of that. Dube brings speed and skating that we lack up front and if he continues to develop he'll be useful because of that speed. Mangiapane is fearless and battles and we need more players who are willing to battle.

You wanna get bigger and stronger? Gaudreau is the guy to trade. I dunno your posts are a little all over the place. I agree we need to get bigger and stronger but EVERY team is looking for big, skilled, physical, fast players. The teams that have them aren't giving them away for nothing. If you wanna change the makeup of the team then you trade a core piece. If you wanna get bigger and stronger then you trade the weak/soft Gaudreau while he still has premium value. That's this summer.