Friedman's 31 - June 25. Dougie's role. Rieder UFA. Flames interested in Zucker?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by cannon7

I think Lindholm and Hanifin are good players. So to his credit, Treliving didn't trade for magic beans. But he does have a growing track record of being on the short end of a trade and that is not the kind of asset management I want to see long term. I certainly hope Lindholm and Hanifin continue to improve, they both have excellent pedigrees. It has really nothing to do with them and more to do with what is being given up to get them.

Would you prefer the type of asset management where a year from now all have lower value as either free agents or one year away from that?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by btimbit

For sure. Treliving said Fox wasn't available on Friday. A day later he's traded

Treliving asked about shopping Hamilton on Thursday said he wasn’t shopping him.

Trades him Saturday and reports were he may have been shopping him for over a year.

GM’s ain’t telling you the whole truth.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by btimbit

For sure. Treliving said Fox wasn't available on Friday. A day later he's traded

It has also been said that Treliving did everything he could to sign or get a commitment from Fox’s advisor Friday night. When it was clear there was going
To be a signing issue he decided to move him

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

It has also been said that Treliving did everything he could to sign or get a commitment from Fox’s advisor Friday night. When it was clear there was going
To be a signing issue he decided to move him

They will generally tell the truth after something has happened. But no GM is going to say they are actively shopping, or tried to trade, a player who is currently on their roster.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

What would it cost to get zucker? Brouwer + Stone?

Poe's Law applies here.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Would you prefer the type of asset management where a year from now all have lower value as either free agents or one year away from that?

That's a false dichotomy, itself predicated on a completely unsupportable assumption. Not to mention an error, as Hamilton will have two years left on his deal, not one.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

That's a false dichotomy, itself predicated on a completely unsupportable assumption. Not to mention an error, as Hamilton will have two years left on his deal, not one.

An asset value diminishes as control decreases. Each year you get closer to UFA status, the value decreases if the contract is a good one, which is what Hamilton was.

I think the other point here is that if the asset is unhappy, do you risk letting that unhappiness fester inside your dressing room? If there is a problem in the dressing room, you have to deal with it right away. You don't want a Hoffman situation and have your asset completely devalued.

Now i'm not saying Hamilton wasn't liked or a dressing room cancer, but if he expressed his unhappiness with management and the team, do you think he's going to be a positive contributor?

Now was the time to move Hamilton, no question. I'm still baffled at the haters of the deal. The asset control and management is a clear win for the Flames, it's not even close. It doesn't even matter if Dougie or Ferland or Fox re-signs with the Hurricanes; it's the fact that all 3 of those assets have great uncertainty, whereas there is a relatively high level of certainty with the two assets coming to Calgary and that doesn't even factor in the upside value.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Wallmark had a higher PPG and more points. He was also the same age. So this isn't quite accurate.

Still, the year before Lander and good ol' Agostino lead the league in point-per-game. Neither were "NHL players" or close.

Vatrano did it in 2016. Small, undersized, offensive forward at 21. Sounds familiar. He did make the NHL, and was more recently traded for a 3rd round pick. Griffith wasn't far behind in PPG, likewise he's made the NHL where he's been claimed off waivers multiple times.

And before that was Pulkkinen. It's not quite a ringing endorsement to lead the AHL in point-per-game. There has been hundreds of NHL players to have strong AHL seasons and become good or even elite players, no one will deny that. But for each one there's probably 3 or 4 AHL players to have equally good seasons and go on to do nothing in the NHL.

If someone is willing to take on Brouwer's crap contract and all they want back is Mangiapane, I don't doubt that the Flames would make that trade.

Of course Ricardow is out to lunch assuming that Mangaipane's worth less now than his original draft pick. But he's not going to fetch you much if he was up for trade, obviously the type of player to hold on to and gamble with at this point.

Thanks for defending my position.... but Vatrno while being 5-9 is over 200 lbs AND makes over a hit/ game. He doesn't fit the Mangaipane profile. He was also only in the AHL for a total of 43 games one season in the AHL after his Junior year in NCAA.

[theinfinitejar]

Originally Posted by 868904

Can you explain Hamilton's minus 40 giveaway/takeaway differential? Can you explain Gio's differential? It's a pretty black and white stat, you give the puck away and you take it away. You give it away, you lose possession, you take it away, you get possession.

They play together all the time so why does one have such a negative differential and the other near zero or positive?

Sidney Crosby was a minus 34. Drew Doughty was a whopping minus 62. Can those guys play on your team?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by theinfinitejar

Sidney Crosby was a minus 34. Drew Doughty was a whopping minus 62. Can those guys play on your team?

I think players that drive the play and try to create offense are typically going to have more turnovers than players that are looking to make safe plays. I don't think this is a stat that too many people pay a lot of attention to as Doughty was 2nd in Norris voting. It's more a narrative for someone that doesn't like a player to trot out.

[868904]

Originally Posted by theinfinitejar

Sidney Crosby was a minus 34. Drew Doughty was a whopping minus 62. Can those guys play on your team?

1) You are going to compare a forward's differential with a defensemen? Doesn't seem fair. A forward in the attacking zone is going to give the puck away a lot more. Seems logical. He also drives the play, he leads the rush, he controls play.

2) How many points did Doughty have? How many points did Burns have? How many points did Karlson have? How many points did Hamilton have? Oh right, 44 points, or as you Hamilton lovers like to call that "elite offensive production". If you produce at a truly "elite" level, you will get cut some slack.

3) That's right, I wouldn't take Doughty on my team, because he is a turnover machine. Every game he plays against the Flames, Tkachuk owns him, I bet 10% of those giveaways he has are from Tkachuk alone. Every game you visit a Kings forum and the fans are complaining about Doughty's turnovers. He's very over-rated now and living off his reputation. I hope he does hit free agency and the Leafs sign him to a monster contract.

4) Look at the leader board for the differential stats, it is populated and dominated with defensemen who we know are bad defensively or young defensemen. At the top is Keith Yandle, followed by Alec Martinez, Karl Alzner, Ron Hainsy, and Mr. Giveaway himself Jake Gardiner. You know who else is up there? PK Subban and Kris Russell, known turnover machines.

5) Again eye test - unlike the advanced stats community, I don't live and die by a stat or a bunch of stats. I've watched enough and played enough hockey over my life to recognize a good defensemen from a bad defensemen, to recognize a good play from a bad play, to identify a breakdown and the cause of it. What I see is that Hamilton is bad defensively. Two NHL management teams have come to the same conclusion. 3 NHL coaches have tethered Hamilton to their best defensive defensemen and shown a complete reluctance to pair him with any weaker defensemen. Why isn't he used on the PK? Wait, I know what you are going to say, because they want to save him for the PP. But then why do they use Gio on the PK, he's good offensively, had produced at an "elite offensive level", why don't they save Gio for the PP? Why do top defensemen who also produce points, play on the PK but Hamilton doesn't? Maybe because the coach doesn't trust him defensively? Because he's not good defensively.

6) The advanced stats community loves Hamilton. How many Flames games do these stats guys actually watch? How many of these "stats guys" are actually statisticians and truly understand the stats?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by 868904

3) That's right, I wouldn't take Doughty on my team, because he is a turnover machine.

OK, we all love to hate on Doughty but seriously? He and Tkachuk would be best buds if he was on the team.

Would you also not take Kadri because Gio owns him? Would you not have taken Messier because Otto got in his head?