Fentanyl crisis in Calgary: Vice documentary

[CaptainCrunch]

I think when we look at other markets that have "legalized" drugs we fail to understand that the North American drug market is completely different. Its the big money maker for the cartel and manufacturers.

What would the cartels do to combat a legalization strategy?

they would attack the cost. Its not like we're giving away the drugs or it would be affordable for the government to do it. Can you imagine the cost in the Las Angeles area if suddenly Heroin, or Meth or coke was given away for free or heavily subsidized?

Most of these addicts aren't working, they're supporting their habit through other means legal or not, and they're looking for the cheapest high.

So the Cartel looks at the costs of a pack of Players extra lemony flavored crack, Canadian self injecting heroin kits, and they go to the addicts with a cheaper and probably lower quality but more potent and addictive version of the drug. Suddenly you see an influx of the synthetic drugs in Russia mixed in a bathtubs at pennies to the dollar to the government approved version. Why buy a $10.00 pack of injectors and have to go to a government center where you get lots of questions when we can sell you this $2.00 bag of Krockadile or however its spelled and you can do it in the privacy of your own home. Heck Frenando will even deliver it to you and give you easy term credit.

On top of that the other thing that the cartels will do is completely infiltrate the government sponsered system and subvert it.

Its great to point to a Holland and say look it works, but the drug criminals aren't simply going to fade away in their primary markets where they already have a massive foothold and control the market and make billions.

At the end of the day, I really don't think that the government should be in the business of the really harmful soul and people destroying drugs, the minute that you do that and have other companies manufacture it for a profit you will end up with a more corrupting maybe more civilized cartel that's legal with a high powered lobby group and tons of cash to spread around.

"Geez Senator Dingleberry, you encouraged us to manufacture Heroin for you, and we spent a ton of money on production facilities and growing operations, we're still not making enough, you should make it legal for us to advertise, and really let us sell them in corner stores"

I liked what someone said earlier. Go after the distribution and dealers, leave the personal use people alone, find a way to improve access to rehab and help for the addicts.

[Thor]

So Cap you are for decriminalization?

I think that is the next step, which I advocate, I'm looking much further down the road with legalization since drugs will continue to be consumed as long as humans exist, the future will just bring different ones, hey I mean we even saw it on Star Trek so you know its going to be around forever.

[CaptainCrunch]

I am for decriminalization to an extent, I still want to go after the dealers and distributors, but not the poor bastard who's addicted to it. I think that its crucial that we find the magic bullet to get these people help to get off of this crap.

For grass, I'm all for legalizing it, putting it in stores taxing it, and having treating it like liquor. You can only buy it if your 21 or over, can't operate a motor vehicle under the influence etc.

[Thor]

The problem with going after dealers and distributors is it does not address the demand, as long as the demand exists we have the supply.

What our consumption has done to Mexico and Columbia is shameful, we can spend billions on trying to do something, but all our efforts have failed in the decades long drug war, its estimated we the US has spent 1.3 Trillion so far... so while we in the west get some cocaine from our dealer, the streets in Mexico are war zones. Former Drug czars in the US are mostly all calling for us to stop the drug war, get going with decriminalization and that is where we must start.

I don't share your skepticism for the future if we legalize all drugs, yes there will be attempts to stop legislation by cartels, alcohol and tobacco (they tried in Colorado), etc.. But for non addicts who seek to use drugs, they will choose a legal means. Again this would depend on us having classes of drugs, ones you could purchase like alcohol and marijuana, and others like heroin/meth etc which would require us likely offering it for free IF users register and use the government funded injection/distribution sites.

But alas I think we are so far from that idea, that it feels rather pointless to debate it until much of the west moves to decriminalization, so I think my effort and others is better spent on pushing legalization of marijuana, and decriminalization of all illegal drugs.

[jar_e]

Fentanyl is really only the tip of the iceberg right now in the synthetic opiates world. Carfentanil, which has already been located in Calgary and various regions of Canada, is even worse. 100 times more potent then fentanyl and 10 000 times more potent then morphine.

I'm tempted to dive into this discussion as this is something I deal with first hand every day but given the responses to Aleks post, I question whether it would be worth my time to get into the debate.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

So much misinformation in this thread. Some of you jumped to comment on this topic without watching a minute of the documentary.

Aleks, You may have a lot of experience with this issue being a paramedic, but with the way you talk about drug addicts it's clear you have no clue what addiction actually is. You may have stared it directly in the eyes, but that doesn't mean you have a firm understanding of it.

Not all addicts are dumb. Most addicts probably aren't dumb in the way you think they are. Their brain works differently BECAUSE of addiction. They don't care that they almost died because their brain is telling them that they need more drugs to live. The cases you work with probably make it seem like a waste of effort. The people that can't be helped because they don't want to help themselves. But you're job isn't to work with the addicts who HAVE overcome their addiction, so how can you possibly speak to that?

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Thor

I think you are misunderstanding legalization a bit, we would not source legal drugs in the future from cartels, it would be businesses like alcohol distillers who manufacture and fall under government oversight, regulation, police will have no involvement at all with that scenario. It will go from a law enforcement issue, to a regulatory issue like with cigarettes, booze, prescription drugs..

I am not misunderstanding legalization at all. Assuming that the government (or government authorized businesses) will add additional supply, it will add more legitimate and trusted placed to buy it. Unfortunately, this does not take away the local dealer. Heck, you said it yourself: " same with even in Colorado where yes the weed is expensive, but the vast majority still choose the legal means to buy, even though there are still dealers who sell for less." If anything, it pushes 'policing' of the local dealer from the cops to some 'regulator' with much less power.

Legalizing pot and other 'harmless' drugs makes sense, but will unfortunately have the result of increasing their use.

Sure the crime rate will go down.. that's a no-brainer. Is that the problem that we're trying to solve here?

[Thor]

Again drug use does not go up in the long term, we have case studies of this with Holland and Portugal.

The reason there is still some dealers in Colorado is that its an island surrounded by states where its a class 1 drug still, and until its legal nationwide you will see this, but again when I say a majority, its over 90% of people.

Like with booze, after it was legalized again after prohibition, illegal sources disappeared quickly.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Thor

How so?

I have read quite a bit on this subject, and worked in communities where drug use was prevalent.

I know that every drug has different pathological effects on the body, but all of them, without a doubt, provide a primarily psychological - even existential - rather than physical escape from the real world.

As one of my favourite writers on the subject has stated, ""As long as man wishes to escape from the existential limitations and difficulties of his existence, then finding bliss at the end of a needle will always seem a viable alternative."

As we live in a paradigm dominated by neuroscience - to a largely deleterious effect, we forget that humans can, and do, actually change their relative situation - even if only to a minimal effect.

The treatment option has been an incredibly ineffective lie, which we have created to simultaneously balm the consciences of society, while still providing addicts with what they want. However, heroin, and opiates, have minimal withdrawal effects, often compared by doctors to symptoms of the flu.

Why not make them dry out? And if they want to try again, let them know the risks of overdosing.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Thor

Again drug use does not go up in the long term, we have case studies of this with Holland and Portugal.

The reason there is still some dealers in Colorado is that its an island surrounded by states where its a class 1 drug still, and until its legal nationwide you will see this, but again when I say a majority, its over 90% of people.

Like with booze, after it was legalized again after prohibition, illegal sources disappeared quickly.

Replaced by legal sources.

Opiate abuse in the western world has skyrocketed over the last 60 years.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by calculoso

I am not misunderstanding legalization at all. Assuming that the government (or government authorized businesses) will add additional supply, it will add more legitimate and trusted placed to buy it. Unfortunately, this does not take away the local dealer. Heck, you said it yourself: " same with even in Colorado where yes the weed is expensive, but the vast majority still choose the legal means to buy, even though there are still dealers who sell for less." If anything, it pushes 'policing' of the local dealer from the cops to some 'regulator' with much less power.

Legalizing pot and other 'harmless' drugs makes sense, but will unfortunately have the result of increasing their use.

Sure the crime rate will go down.. that's a no-brainer. Is that the problem that we're trying to solve here?

Care to quote some studies on that? I recall some studies in the Netherlands which found the opposite to be true among local residents.

Crime rate going down is one of the issues.

The drug will be regulated and therefore MUCH safer, which is the biggest issue. Regulated doses also helps regulate addiction which is also important. If you watched the documentary, you'd know this is the reason most of the OD's are happening right now.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Thor

Again drug use does not go up in the long term, we have case studies of this with Holland and Portugal.

The reason there is still some dealers in Colorado is that its an island surrounded by states where its a class 1 drug still, and until its legal nationwide you will see this, but again when I say a majority, its over 90% of people.

Like with booze, after it was legalized again after prohibition, illegal sources disappeared quickly.

You know both Holland and Portugal heavily punish drug crimes, right?

[Thor]

Originally Posted by peter12

Replaced by legal sources.

Opiate abuse in the western world has skyrocketed over the last 60 years.

Much of the opiate use comes from legal means, prescription drugs. But yes that is a huge problem, as is meth use. Decriminalization won't fix that, it might help bring more people out of the woodwork to seek help since no one wants a criminal record, or to be put in prison under the current laws.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Thor

Much of the opiate use comes from legal means, prescription drugs. But yes that is a huge problem, as is meth use. Decriminalization won't fix that, it might help bring more people out of the woodwork to seek help since no one wants a criminal record, or to be put in prison under the current laws.

So see what happens when we legalize. We replace one criminal element with another.

Oh BS. I live in a city where heroin use has practically been normalized.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

You know both Holland and Portugal heavily punish drug crimes, right?

Yes for distribution, large quantities of drugs.

Again, the problem is partly because you can't just be a lone country surrounded by others who continue the war on drugs and don't decriminalize.

But as for users, no they don't punish drug crimes of regular users.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by peter12

So see what happens when we legalize. We replace one criminal element with another.

Oh BS. I live in a city where heroin use has practically been normalized.

What would you do then with our current laws, and how we deal with the issue of drugs, drug addicts?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by jar_e

Fentanyl is really only the tip of the iceberg right now in the synthetic opiates world. Carfentanil, which has already been located in Calgary and various regions of Canada, is even worse. 100 times more potent then fentanyl and 10 000 times more potent then morphine.

I'm tempted to dive into this discussion as this is something I deal with first hand every day but given the responses to Aleks post, I question whether it would be worth my time to get into the debate.

Yeah! ... GET THE HELL OUTTA HERE WITH YOUR EXPERIENCED OPINION MAN!

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Thor

If this is all very idiotic to you, what would be your plan to deal with drugs, drug use, cartels, street gangs and drug crime, addicts committing crime to pay for drugs, etc...

I don't have one. I also firmly believe you aren't even close to one either.

One doesn't have to have a solution to know that another proposed one is illogical. What you're talking about isn't a scenario where the cartels get crippled. A few government runs spots for addicts? I don't see that making any significant difference.

It's as illogical as the war on drugs. You can't just legalise it and expect it to magically fix everything. You have to have infrastructure in place that is going to comfortably replace what the cartels provide, and "a few spots for addicts" isn't that. You have to go all the way, or you provide room for the cartels to operate.

Do you honestly believe a lot of heroin addicts are going to the government run place to pay significantly more for cleaner heroin while likely filling out some kind of form, or do you think they'll go get it on the street for half the price in half the time?

Not all drugs are created equal. You can't apply the same methodology you do to marijuana as to other drugs. They aren't all going to work the same.

[CliffFletcher]

Treating this strictly as a healthcare issue is as inadequate as treating it strictly as a law enforcement issue. As peter12 points out, people get wasted because they want to get wasted. And some people are genuinely self-destructive, regardless of any physical addiction. Fentanyl use isn't randomly distributed among the population. Unhappy, foolish, and short-sighted people are over-represented. Those character traits aren't fixed in stone, but they're also not something you can simply make go away with drug treatment programs. If unhappy people don't have one avenue of escaping their lives, they'll find another thing. There's social value in making the most lethal drugs difficult to access.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Thor

What would you do then with our current laws, and how we deal with the issue of drugs, drug addicts?

It is an existential mystery. I have no solution. My Christian conscience (similar to yours, Thor) revolts at the thought of addicts dying in the street.

However, I am disgusted at the enabling, and profiteering of our current institutions.