Fentanyl crisis in Calgary: Vice documentary

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Hey, I agree with you. And now you've made your point without comparing heroin to cigarettes.

I was trying to point out that cigarettes are worse than heroin, not as an arguement against smokes but that people should calm down around the other drugs, every three years or so we have these media scares, the last one was meth.
If you work with addicts you soon learn that drugs are cyclical, we go through these cycles of overdoses every few years as users transfer from the various drugs due to price, law enforcement or the like.
Thus far fentynol has been no worse than the China white surge back in 98 or so, it will burn out as users work out their doses and who's selling what, and we will go back to the steady stream of deaths we always have on the DTES.

[Knut]

Originally Posted by Locke

He strikes me as more of a Stegosaurus man.

That makes him much older. Considering we are closer in timeline to T-Rex than the T-Rex is to Stegosaurus.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

We are talking about legalizing Heroin as being a solution to overdoses, I am pointing out it isn't, that's not being obtuse it's just a fact, any use of any heroin is just as dangerous in fact most of the overdoses we see from OxyContin are from legal supplies.

The idea that the only problem with heroin is its impurity is absurd, the idea that junkies will use legal drugs in a safe monitored environment and won't misjudge their dose after a stint in jail or on their birthday after a few drinks or any one of the many ways a junkie can misjudge their dope is asinine.
Legalizing heroin won't do a thing to stop overdoses because overdoses are caused by human error basically, heroin, all opiates, require medical training to be administered safely in a hospital, the chances of a FASD junkie who can barely read and has just got out of jail getting something wrong in his or her desperate need to fix as quickly as possible is almost guaranteed.

Sounds like what we need are more safe injection facilities for heroin addicts. That can be done without legalising heroin for recreational use.

Vancouver's InSite has 5 stars on Google. With 11 reviews.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Sounds like what we need are more safe injection facilities for heroin addicts. That can be done without legalising heroin for recreational use.

Vancouver's InSite has 5 stars on Google. With 11 reviews.

Portugal has a great model. Continue to go after traffickers/dealers and decriminalize use/personal possession. Let people seek treatment without worrying about a criminal record.

[Thor]

Step 1 for me would be legalization of Marijuana, step 2 would be to decriminalize all current illegal drugs and change from a law enforcement policy on drugs to it being a medical issue.

Step 3 is the tough part, which I think will eventually have to happen in most of the west, maybe in the next 10-30 years after more countries decriminalize.

#3 Legalization of all drugs. This is necessary for a few major reasons, #1 cartels, crime organizations, gangs all will be severely harmed by this, which would decrease crime and change the landscape of law enforcement world wide. The damage done in Mexico because of illegal drug trafficking is staggering, and drug use since the war on drugs started in the late 70s has done exactly nothing to curb drug use.

All drugs would be regulated and controlled so that potency and of course quality can be guaranteed, thus reducing harm from street drugs which can be deadly because of how they are manufactured and distributed. So many drugs you buy can vary in potency and could be laced with dangerous things.

#4 Since we are now treating drug problems as a societal health issue, the taxes coming from drug sales can be moved from law enforcement in to education (see the success of the quit smoking campaigns) to funding more medical means to deal with addiction problems, research in to helping people get off addictions, and rehab centers.

The biggest worry people have is if we take these steps drug use will increase, however in places like Portugal which decriminalized all drugs has seen a reduction in drug use, and that is pretty impressive considering it is only one country surrounded by others which still have tough drug laws.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Legalizing drugs will not do a thing to reduce overdoses or deaths

Facts from Portugal disagree with you.

https://mic.com/articles/110344/14-y...ing#.81AyAP1do

[driveway]

Boy that documentary makes Calgary look like a bland, grey, Midwestern wasteland.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Thor

The biggest worry people have is if we take these steps drug use will increase, however in places like Portugal which decriminalized all drugs has seen a reduction in drug use, and that is pretty impressive considering it is only one country surrounded by others which still have tough drug laws.

It's important to note that Portugal did not JUST decriminalize drugs, but also invested in preventive measures and treatments.

You also have to accept that there will always be some problems.

[Thor]

Its also quite staggering the amount of taxes Colorado is taking in with just legalizing marijuana, the benefit from this new economy is also not to be taken lightly. This still with them having to be a cash only business, which is craziness. But the tax coffers are overflowing, think of all the use Canada could get with legalization, if we reinvest that in to healthcare, schools, etc.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Thor

#3 Legalization of all drugs. This is necessary for a few major reasons, #1 cartels, crime organizations, gangs all will be severely harmed by this, which would decrease crime and change the landscape of law enforcement world wide. The damage done in Mexico because of illegal drug trafficking is staggering, and drug use since the war on drugs started in the late 70s has done exactly nothing to curb drug use.

All drugs would be regulated and controlled so that potency and of course quality can be guaranteed, thus reducing harm from street drugs which can be deadly because of how they are manufactured and distributed. So many drugs you buy can vary in potency and could be laced with dangerous things.

Of course this will reduce crime, as this would take what was previously a crime and no longer categorizing it as such. How would legalizing it magically harm drug cartels and "crime organizations"? If anything, it would help them, as they no longer would have to sneak around and do it - they could openly promote themselves, as nothing is illegal anymore.

All drugs would be regulated and controlled so that potency and of course quality can be guaranteed, thus reducing harm from street drugs which can be deadly because of how they are manufactured and distributed. So many drugs you buy can vary in potency and could be laced with dangerous things.

While I understand that the demand for the 'illegal' drugs would gradually wane as supply of the 'legal/regulated' drugs increased, I don't see how magically turning policemen fighting illegal drugs into regulators monitoring drug quality is going to be a magic bullet. Are the former illegal drug cartels going to all of a sudden reveal their locations and supply routes? Is all of the smuggling going to all of a sudden stop because they can just 'pay duties and taxes' at the border?

I completely agree that some of this has to happen for progress to be made... I just don't think that it's going to be the easy road to a solution that many appear to make it out to be.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Of course this will reduce crime, as this would take what was previously a crime and no longer categorizing it as such. How would legalizing it magically harm drug cartels and "crime organizations"? If anything, it would help them, as they no longer would have to sneak around and do it - they could openly promote themselves, as nothing is illegal anymore.

Well a good example is the pivoting the Mexican cartels started to do when legalization and medical marijuana started to affect their bottom line. Their response was to start becoming big exporters of heroin, meth and other stuff they could sell to make up for those losses.

Which is why eventually you have to legalize all drugs, because you have to start to truly harm the criminal element, just imagine what inner city slums in the US would be like when street corners are not filled with gangs protecting their turf and selling drugs.

The idea they would still be of any significance is dubious, because we all have access to legal alcohol, the idea of buying home made vodka from some dude seems silly to pretty much everyone, same with even in Colorado where yes the weed is expensive, but the vast majority still choose the legal means to buy, even though there are still dealers who sell for less.

That will change as all the US legalizes and dealers selling pot will become nearly irrelevant, not to mention they will move on to selling other drugs to make up for that loss in revenue, which is another reason for moving the path towards legalization of all drugs.

While I understand that the demand for the 'illegal' drugs would gradually wane as supply of the 'legal/regulated' drugs increased, I don't see how magically turning policemen fighting illegal drugs into regulators monitoring drug quality is going to be a magic bullet. Are the former illegal drug cartels going to all of a sudden reveal their locations and supply routes? Is all of the smuggling going to all of a sudden stop because they can just 'pay duties and taxes' at the border?

I think you are misunderstanding legalization a bit, we would not source legal drugs in the future from cartels, it would be businesses like alcohol distillers who manufacture and fall under government oversight, regulation, police will have no involvement at all with that scenario. It will go from a law enforcement issue, to a regulatory issue like with cigarettes, booze, prescription drugs..

I completely agree that some of this has to happen for progress to be made... I just don't think that it's going to be the easy road to a solution that many appear to make it out to be.

I certainly don't think it will be easy, we have a long way to go before this happens, even with decriminalization which sadly I think will take a decade or two, but the logical step after that is to start legalizing which has to happen in many countries in order for it to start having a massive effect on crime organizations.

My hope is that say 30yrs down the road (might be optimistic) we see most of the western democracies have either mostly moved to decriminalization and a number of them to legalization, which will in turn give lots of proven benefits to those harder on drugs like some Asian nations.

But if Canada say takes the steps to move from decriminalization and eventually legalization, it will put immense pressure on the US to follow suit, which if both these 2 nations eventually get to that point will cause a massive blow to the cartels working out of Mexico and latin America, which would have to focus more on the EU and the rest of the world.

My hope is that we could be that example which shows other nations the way in moving forward from treating drugs as a criminal activity and with all the benefits to our society from focusing on this issue as a health issue would be a powerful way to show others this is not only a worth while thing to do, but beneficial in many ways to society.

[Muta]

The only drug anyone would ever need is the gym!

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Muta

The only drug anyone would ever need is the gym!

Love is the drug for me

[Muta]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Love is the drug for me

Found Bryan Ferry.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Thor

Well a good example is the pivoting the Mexican cartels started to do when legalization and medical marijuana started to affect their bottom line. Their response was to start becoming big exporters of heroin, meth and other stuff they could sell to make up for those losses.



Which is why eventually you have to legalize all drugs, because you have to start to truly harm the criminal element, just imagine what inner city slums in the US would be like when street corners are not filled with gangs protecting their turf and selling drugs.



The idea they would still be of any significance is dubious, because we all have access to legal alcohol, the idea of buying home made vodka from some dude seems silly to pretty much everyone, same with even in Colorado where yes the weed is expensive, but the vast majority still choose the legal means to buy, even though there are still dealers who sell for less.



That will change as all the US legalizes and dealers selling pot will become nearly irrelevant, not to mention they will move on to selling other drugs to make up for that loss in revenue, which is another reason for moving the path towards legalization of all drugs.



I think you are misunderstanding legalization a bit, we would not source legal drugs in the future from cartels, it would be businesses like alcohol distillers who manufacture and fall under government oversight, regulation, police will have no involvement at all with that scenario. It will go from a law enforcement issue, to a regulatory issue like with cigarettes, booze, prescription drugs.

Sorry, but I think they're "misunderstanding" your version of legalisation because it seems incredibly naive.

In this scenario, do you believe that one all drugs are legalised the cartels will be pushed out and we'll be able to get little baggies of Pepsi brand heroin at 7-11? Or Coke brand Cocaine? That, to me, seems not only unlikely but kind of down right stupid.

The reason legalisation works well in an effort to curb criminal activity is that there is an industry the government is interested in investing in. The studies are out, the harm is low, usage is high. Great thing to get into.

You think the government is going to start pushing fentanyl? ecstasy? ketamine? cocaine? heroin? meth?

I'd love to see how they remake Breaking Bad in your version of the future, where Walter White gets the treatment he needs because he's a decently paid unionised government meth producer.

[peter12]

Why should we feel socially responsible to reduce death from drug overdose?

[Thor]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

In this scenario, do you believe that one all drugs are legalised the cartels will be pushed out and we'll be able to get little baggies of Pepsi brand heroin at 7-11? Or Coke brand Cocaine? That, to me, seems not only unlikely but kind of down right stupid.

No, but there will be dispensaries where addicts have access to this, heroin, meth and other highly addictive stuff would be available for users, with full access to health professionals, much like injection sites that have had great success in many countries.

Like in Holland, you could buy weed, mushrooms, other psychadelics. None of this would be easy or comfortable to do, but if we only legalize some things we still ignore those small percentage of addicts who are afraid to seek help because of the criminal element, not to mention what decriminalization would do as a great first step to at least start combating this health issue.

You think the government is going to start pushing fentanyl? ecstasy? ketamine? cocaine? heroin? meth?

The government won't "push" anything, they would regulate and allow for some manufacturing to meet the demand of addicts, they would classify and allow distribution based on risk&harm, like you can buy marijuana like you could with alcohol, but heroin, meth would be dispensed in a similar way to how safe injection sites work, but this time with full supervision and support for the addicts to seek a way out of addiction. Again not going to be easy.

I'd love to see how they remake Breaking Bad in your version of the future, where Walter White gets the treatment he needs because he's a decently paid unionised government meth producer.

Again, the government does not produce the drugs, they don't produce alcohol, cigarettes, or prescription drugs (many which are far more harmful, addiction wise than many current illegal drugs).

If this is all very idiotic to you, what would be your plan to deal with drugs, drug use, cartels, street gangs and drug crime, addicts committing crime to pay for drugs, etc...

[Thor]

Originally Posted by peter12

Why should we feel socially responsible to reduce death from drug overdose?

Empathy? Wanting less crime in our streets, taking responsibility for the chaos our drug consumption causes Mexico, Columbia and other drug producing nations?

Freeing up our law enforcement to focus on everything else, while we let our health professionals help those who need help, and seek it...

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Thor

Empathy? Wanting less crime in our streets, taking responsibility for the chaos our drug consumption causes Mexico, Columbia and other drug producing nations?

Freeing up our law enforcement to focus on everything else, while we let our health professionals help those who need help, and seek it...

Personally, I think it undermines human will and freedom.

[Thor]

How so?