Alberta students to define their own gender

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by peter12

Kind of creeped out about the top-down approach, and the enforcement of political standards in what is essentially a private, family issue.

How is it essentially a private family issue? Is a child suppose to identify as one sex at home and another at school? What do you mean when you say that?

[peter12]

I will take it to PM then.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by peter12

Kind of creeped out about the top-down approach, and the enforcement of political standards in what is essentially a private, family issue.

I don't know a lot about the bill, but isn't it just opening the space up for trans people, and not forcing anything? It sounds a lot like the gay marriage debate, in that if it doesn't affect you, why does it matter? Now these children have some protections and accommodations? What part is forced?

[MelBridgeman]

Had gender neutral washrooms in my catholic HS in Calgary 25 years ago.. ...good to see the rest of the world is catching up

[Flash Walken]

Is the Alberta government recommending gender re-assignment surgery in its schools?

Sorry, I'm clouded here, I thought we were talking about sports teams and washrooms.

The only thing 'mandated' here is the need for schools to adopt gay/straight alliances if a student wishes to have one, that students identifying as one gender or the other be able to use the washroom of their choice and that students not be barred from team sports because of their gender.

I suppose those things are very difficult to argue against, so now we've moved on to the efficacy of surgery to prove a point.

What a patently absurd conversation.

Mirrors this one quite evidently:

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthr...aight+alliance

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Is the Alberta government recommending gender re-assignment surgery in its schools?

Sorry, I'm clouded here, I thought we were talking about sports teams and washrooms.

The only thing 'mandated' here is the need for schools to adopt gay/straight alliances if a student wishes to have one, that students identifying as one gender or the other be able to use the washroom of their choice and that students not be barred from team sports because of their gender.

I suppose those things are very difficult to argue against, so now we've moved on to the efficacy of surgery to prove a point.

What a patently absurd conversation.

Mirrors this one quite evidently:

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthr...aight+alliance

Yeah, maybe. I tend to see it is an alarming trend, not towards recognizing, and validating the experiences of transgendered children, but rather the ham-handed, edu-speak drive to do something that may or may not be effective.

I tend to think that families, and children are far more resilient than you seem to think.

What irks me, and strikes me as actually blatantly totalitarian, is this assumption that we all have to have the same opinion. You, and others, should be ashamed of yourselves for not taking the views of others as seriously as your own.

[polak]

I don't see how it's okay to have someone who is biologically a man compete with people who are biologically women in sports but okay. Lets pretend that there isn't a measurable, quantifiable difference in sports performance between biological males and females.

Rest of the points I'm a-okay with as long as they track the sex of the student for health reasons. Females need different health education than Males, regardless if they call themselves a boy or girl, cause their menstrual cycle, uterus or HPV doesn't care what they say they are.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by peter12

Yeah, maybe. I tend to see it is an alarming trend, not towards recognizing, and validating the experiences of transgendered children, but rather the ham-handed, edu-speak drive to do something that may or may not be effective.

I tend to think that families, and children are far more resilient than you seem to think.

What the hell are you even talking about here? I know all of those 10 cent words and none of this makes any sense at all. Christ almighty, stick to strudier stickmen like I believe schools are indoctrination centres for the 'commissar'.

If you were in my History class I would've given you an F for this.

"Ooh, the ministry of education has set standards in how school administration deals with its students. What's next, yellow armbands? Work Camps? GAY STRAIGHT ALLIANCES!?"

Give me a break.

[Northendzone]

i can just see what will happen when these little snowflakes start working - they be given a desk and some work and within 10 minutes they will be sitting in the CEO's office, working on coloring books becasue they did not like thier desk or the work they were given......

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

As for safe betting on future: I am betting that in 2025 Canada, just like Sweden, will be way more left of centre, than it is today. It is inevitable.

I disagree. The pendulum tends to swing back and forth on these things. As the pendulum in the West moves past soft liberal and into the authoritarian hard left, the reaction against it will build up (because most people in the West do still value individual liberty highly), and the pendulum will swing back the other way.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Did the alberta legislature shut down or something? Is this the only thing on the docket right now?

I'm talking about the Zeitgeist of the times. Transgendered issues have been near the top of the media and social agenda for the last couple years, despite affecting very few people. In five years, it will be something else - something else so obscure it would be impossible to predict today.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

What the hell are you even talking about here? I know all of those 10 cent words and none of this makes any sense at all. Christ almighty, stick to strudier stickmen like I believe schools are indoctrination centres for the 'commissar'.

If you were in my History class I would've given you an F for this.

"Ooh, the ministry of education has set standards in how school administration deals with its students. What's next, yellow armbands? Work Camps? GAY STRAIGHT ALLIANCES!?"

Give me a break.

Cute.

I don't like the standards. Beyond your purposeful exaggerations of my views, what do you have to say in answer? Obviously, nothing.

I don't think governments have any business setting these kinds of standards. I think they detract from the educational experience. I think they have very flimsy justifications. I have said why. You have nothing to say, but it isn't a big deal. Well, I happen to think it is a big deal.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

i can just see what will happen when these little snowflakes start working - they be given a desk and some work and within 10 minutes they will be sitting in the CEO's office, working on coloring books becasue they did not like thier desk or the work they were given......

Hey, Professor Ellipsis, try to get a grasp on what exactly the topic is before wading in with a bunch of nonsense.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by polak

I don't see how it's okay to have someone who is biologically a man compete with people who are biologically women in sports but okay. Lets pretend that there isn't a measurable, quantifiable difference in sports performance between biological males and female.

Rest of the points I'm a-okay with as long as they track the sex of the student for health reasons. Females need different health education than Males, regardless if they call themselves a boy or girl, cause their menstrual cycle, uterus or HPV doesn't care what they say they are.

When I was teaching physed to kids as old as 15 I was trying to get them to run to the correct base on the diamond, we weren't terrible concerned that one of the boys had a better slugging percentage or ran a faster 40 than one of the girls.

Based on the 16 year olds I know, both the girls and the boys could use the information provided by sitting in on the other groups sex ed class.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I'm talking about the Zeitgeist of the times. Transgendered issues have been near the top of the media and social agenda for the last couple years, despite affecting very few people. In five years, it will be something else - something else so obscure it would be impossible to predict today.

So are you an old man yelling at a cloud here or do what?

Why not go post in one of the threads about an issue that isn't getting enough attention?

[REDVAN]

To those who think genders should even have separate bathrooms...

Spoiler!

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

When I was teaching physed to kids as old as 15 I was trying to get them to run to the correct base on the diamond, we weren't terrible concerned that one of the boys had a better slugging percentage or ran a faster 40 than one of the girls.

Based on the 16 year olds I know, both the girls and the boys could use the information provided by sitting in on the other groups sex ed class.

Are phys-ed classes so meritocratic now that girls and boys can't play on the same team? When I was in high school, our classes were mixed, and it didn't matter if a girl or a guy was batting. Sex-ed classes were mixed as well. None of this matters, and it clearly has nothing to do with the subject at hand. You seem to enjoy a particular strawman: whereby your opponents are all a bunch of uptight, sexually-repressed bigots who pine for the Victorian era.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

i can just see what will happen when these little snowflakes start working - they be given a desk and some work and within 10 minutes they will be sitting in the CEO's office, working on coloring books becasue they did not like thier desk or the work they were given......

You couldn't have read a single word in this thread. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as you seem to typically go into threads and add a little one liner attempt at humor, because if your words are coming from your heart on the actual issue than you just posted one of the most hateful messages this site has ever seen.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I've always been fascinated by the process by which individual issues and incidents are plucked out of the thousands of things that cause harm and distress and make it to the public consciousness and political agenda. Even though I worked in the media, and saw it first-hand, the process remains opaque. What is clear is that utilitarianism plays no role. The number of people affected by an incident, injustice, or change has no bearing on its likelihood of becoming a public issue. Some types of issues (involving sex, or children) have a hot-button quality. Other types (involving old people, or the poor), are typically ignored.

So there's no real way to anticipate what will become a major societal issue in, say, 2025. No metrics or utilitarian considerations. Though if you had to put money on it, the safe bet would be something that is novel, involve sex and/or children, and not affect many people.

Yeah, this is an issue completely permeated by advocates - as shown by posters who can't seem to summon an opinion more complicated than "I don't see what the big deal is?"

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by peter12

Cute.

I don't like the standards. Beyond your purposeful exaggerations of my views, what do you have to say in answer? Obviously, nothing.

I don't think governments have any business setting these kinds of standards. I think they detract from the educational experience. I think they have very flimsy justifications. I have said why. You have nothing to say, but it isn't a big deal. Well, I happen to think it is a big deal.

Government set the standard in the first place that different genders had to use different washrooms and that girls couldn't play on the same sports teams as guys.

Back in the days of yore when everything was better, kids from all different grades and genders socialized together, used a coed bathroom and played together at recess.

Then big bad government came in stomping their feet and said "You have to use THIS bathroom, and you have to use THAT bathroom and that YOU are too dumb to be in this grade and YOU are too old to be in that grade."

Maybe this legislation is bringing us back to the glory days of the 1910s.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Government set the standard in the first place that different genders had to use different washrooms and that girls couldn't play on the same sports teams as guys.

Back in the days of yore when everything was better, kids from all different grades and genders socialized together, used a coed bathroom and played together at recess.

Then big bad government came in stomping their feet and said "You have to use THIS bathroom, and you have to use THAT bathroom and that YOU are too dumb to be in this grade and YOU are too old to be in that grade."

Maybe this legislation is bringing us back to the glory days of the 1910s.

So you are saying that this is just a neutralization of standards, then? A Great Reset? Or is this another strawman?

Look, Flash, I am not going to argue that the gender binary has gotten worse. Obviously it has. There are increasing pressures, mainly from the corporate media, about what girls and boys should look like, do, play with, say, watch, eat... etc...

If this is a bigger discussion about how we educate children, then I think that is an interesting discussion. But my problem is that this big push for transgender rights is just a further radicalization of the gender problem, and comes with very dangerous assumptions about many things that I have tried to highlight in my posts.

So, the efficacy of the surgery has nothing to do with the policy at hand, but it is an ancillary aspect of the problem from the social perspective.