Thank You Jay Feaster!

[ForeverFlameFan]

A little off topic, but who do you guys think Feaster would have picked if we had 1st OA in 2013? Jones? MacKinnon?

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

So who's the bigger dummy - Feaster for making the offer or Sherman for turning it down?

Seems like they both overrated the relative values of the 1st vs 6th pick. But it's conventional wisdom that #1 is worth a lot more than #6, especially when a player like McKinnon is available. Only in hindsight have we seen that Monahan is developing into as a good a player as McKinnon.

Way too early to be calling this.

[keratosis]

I kinda agree, but then I think of what Monahan did for us this year. Could not care less about McKinnon anymore.

[Badgers Nose]

It's the poor man's crosby vs toews debate.

Imo MacK probably has the better point production through his career. But Money is the better leader.

Poirier and Klimchuk will settle it for me. Once we know what they are.

But both scenarios are winners. Imo the Feaster critics are too harsh. A GM getting the 1st OA when a 'generational' talent is availble is pretty cool. I'd have flipped out.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by PrettyBoyFlizzy

Not sure why Darryl is being thanked, he left this organization in shambles.

This is all thanks to finally realizing that sitting with old guard would never work, and that Darryl's idea was flawed, and forcing Jay to follow that vision was the wrong move as well.

Once they allowed Jay to tear it down we can see how drafting and building is the only way to get it done.

If you look back, he got Phaneuf out at the best possible time. Got Gio and Brodie, which are our center pieces today. Sure his ideas were flawed, but he still deserves some credit

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Singularity

If you look back, he got Phaneuf out at the best possible time. Got Gio and Brodie, which are our center pieces today. Sure his ideas were flawed, but he still deserves some credit

Not to mention Ferland, though I don't really give GM's credit for drafting players, Ferland was drafted by the Darryl regime.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Not to mention Ferland, though I don't really give GM's credit for drafting players, Ferland was drafted by the Darryl regime.

More luck than anything considering the 1st rounder busts of Chucko, Pelech, Nemisz, etc. under that regime which also fit that prototypical Sutter mold.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

More luck than anything considering the 1st rounder busts of Chucko, Pelech, Nemisz, etc. under that regime which also fit that prototypical Sutter mold.

Thats not how it works, especially since he also "lucked" out (supposedly) on Bouma too then. Or Bill Arnold.

If thats the case, Feaster should get no props (not that I think a GM should ever get props for what a scout does) for Gaudreau considering he drafted 1st round bust Baerschi ahead of him.

(Note : I don't think Darryl or Feaster should be given "props" for work someone else did, except Giordano who I know Darryl did personally scout and find, though Webster and Button were also involved.)

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

A little off topic, but who do you guys think Feaster would have picked if we had 1st OA in 2013? Jones? MacKinnon?

MacKinnon IMO

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

A little off topic, but who do you guys think Feaster would have picked if we had 1st OA in 2013? Jones? MacKinnon?

MacKinnon, if he'd wanted Jones we would have heard/seen him trying to swing the same deal with the folk picking after the Aves... we didn't so I can only assume that McKinnon was who he wanted.

[Moneyhands23]

Feaster did us a solid! It's interesting to think the current brain trusts biggest problems will be who to hold on to and who to trade!

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

More luck than anything considering the 1st rounder busts of Chucko, Pelech, Nemisz, etc. under that regime which also fit that prototypical Sutter mold.

Daryl is the one who is responsible for changing the scouting philosophy and placing emphasis on things like hockey IQ. In the old NHL size was very important and most teams placed a great deal of emphasis on it. Sutter realized the game was changing and in 2007 implemented a new scouting philosophy. If you look at Flames drafting this is the year it started to improve greatly. (Backlund, Bouma, Brodie, Ferland, Reinhart, Ortio, Arnold, Erixon which we were able to flip into Granlund and Wotherspoon) Luck is always a part of drafting but I don't think you can dispute the increased success we have seen after Sutter made those changes.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Thats not how it works, especially since he also "lucked" out (supposedly) on Bouma too then. Or Bill Arnold.

If thats the case, Feaster should get no props (not that I think a GM should ever get props for what a scout does) for Gaudreau considering he drafted 1st round bust Baerschi ahead of him.

(Note : I don't think Darryl or Feaster should be given "props" for work someone else did, except Giordano who I know Darryl did personally scout and find, though Webster and Button were also involved.)

They way I look at things, the first round pick should be the pick the organization is 100% assured of and committed to. That other picks pan out is a credit to the scouting team and the GM in a different way. Some picks are made for depth, some to take chances on players that are a gamble... but I feel that busting a first rounder is a much more egregious indictment of a GM's abilities and reflects on the truist extent of their vision. For me, Darryl's first round busts really reveal how much the things he was looking for did not reflect the reality of successful NHL players down the road.

Some GMs are great a player management and bad at drafting, and the other way around. Luck plays into a lot of things. I can give Darryl credit for scouting Gio but he also was the one who forced him over to Russia (that might ultimately have been a good thing for his development, but it showed a lack of confidence at the time on both parties).

I have to give Feaster credit for refusing to deal Ferland when Phoenix tried hard to get him in the Langkow/Stemps deal. That shows Feaster had some forsight there.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

They way I look at things, the first round pick should be the pick the organization is 100% assured of and committed to. That other picks pan out is a credit to the scouting team and the GM in a different way. Some picks are made for depth, some to take chances on players that are a gamble... but I feel that busting a first rounder is a much more egregious indictment of a GM's abilities and reflects on the truist extent of their vision.

Thats an awfully simplistic way of looking at it. Again, ignoring the premise that its the scouting team (Button, Webster, et al) that actually are the ones who put in the work to scout and work with the players... you ignored many factors including:

- position that Chucko, Pelech, Nemisz were drafted - 19th, 26th, 25th.... versus Sven, Monahan and Jankowski - 13th, 21st and 6th

- quality of prospects in their draft year (2005 and 2006 were pretty bad years)

- how did the players within the range (say +/-3 spots) perform ?

- why do you keep leaving out Mikael Backlund? Also Erixon might not be with the Flames anymore, but he garnered two 2nd round picks and a prospect, that has to account for something

- if what you are saying is true, that 1st round pick are a reflection on a GM and the rest is just scouting and luck (I disagree but I digress) then you can't give the mid-round picks so much credit

In the end... its all for not IMO, because all the work is Tod Button and his staff. Its weird to me to people give credit to the people who were not part of the decision process over and over again, but seldom mention the people who did do the work. This is mandatory reading for anyone of that ilk : http://flamesnation.ca/2012/5/14/the...-of-tod-button


If you want to credit Hudler, fully 100% agree with you..... if you go back to that thread, I loved that UFA signing at the time. Hartley, agreed, he's been one of the biggest reasons for success. This is how I see today's important pieces and who brought them in :

Feaster - Hartley, Hudler
Button/Webster under Darryl - Giordano, Brodie, Bouma, Ferland
Button/Webster under Feaster - Monahan, Gaudreau
Button/Webster under Burke - Bennett

Feaster did have some wins for sure... but it seems like there's just way too much trying to justify his existence.

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I have to give Feaster credit for refusing to deal Ferland when Phoenix tried hard to get him in the Langkow/Stemps deal. That shows Feaster had some forsight there.

Thats really weird that you would completely disregard any credit to the guy/team that brough Ferlandt in, but then think so highly of the guy/team for simply not trading him.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

They way I look at things, the first round pick should be the pick the organization is 100% assured of and committed to. That other picks pan out is a credit to the scouting team and the GM in a different way. Some picks are made for depth, some to take chances on players that are a gamble... but I feel that busting a first rounder is a much more egregious indictment of a GM's abilities and reflects on the truist extent of their vision. For me, Darryl's first round busts really reveal how much the things he was looking for did not reflect the reality of successful NHL players down the road.

Some GMs are great a player management and bad at drafting, and the other way around. Luck plays into a lot of things. I can give Darryl credit for scouting Gio but he also was the one who forced him over to Russia (that might ultimately have been a good thing for his development, but it showed a lack of confidence at the time on both parties).

I have to give Feaster credit for refusing to deal Ferland when Phoenix tried hard to get him in the Langkow/Stemps deal. That shows Feaster had some forsight there.

Dude you don't even make sense. The GM gets credit for the first round but not after that? You realize that scouts compile a list and for the most part just go off that list. Also Daryl was drafting with late picks. Chucko was 24. Pelech was 26. Irving was 26. And yes let's give Feaster the credit for Ferland when he was drafted under Sutter. The only thing Feaster would have to go on with regards to Ferland is what someone else told him. I'll take the opinion of the guy who has been involved in hockey his entire life over the guy who probably can hardly skate.

[Phanuthier]

Also WRT to the Ferland thing... yes Treliving asking and targetted Ferland, but do you happen to know how many times Treliving has his hands in other teams cookie jar? He heavily recruited Hathaway (was point of contact), heavily recruited Jooris in Pheonix, knew the ins and outs of Ferland, Sven, Bennett and Monahan before the Flames drafted him, had tales to talk about Brodie while he was still in the AHL, talked about Gio's overage play in juniors and also tried to get him on a PTO.... Treliving his has hands in lots of cookie jars, not just Ferland. He probably called and asked about a lot of prospects that didn't turn out either.

(Side note : one thing that really impresses me about Treliving is he really knows the ins and outs of many different players, in many different leagues. Feaster admitted that he doesn't watch juniors or NCAA hockey, didn't even watch the WJC one year... I feel kind of bad dumping on a guy in this thread, especially since I think its pretty cool he's still a huge fan of the team and is totally pumped at how the Flames are doing right now, but he seemed kind of oblivious sometimes what the hell was going on, especially when his reports dropped the ball. Contrast this to Treliving, who won't get caught with his pants down the same way, ala Cervenka.)

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

(Side note : one thing that really impresses me about Treliving is he really knows the ins and outs of many different players, in many different leagues. Feaster admitted that he doesn't watch juniors or NCAA hockey, didn't even watch the WJC one year... I feel kind of bad dumping on a guy in this thread, especially since I think its pretty cool he's still a huge fan of the team and is totally pumped at how the Flames are doing right now, but he seemed kind of oblivious sometimes what the hell was going on, especially when his reports dropped the ball. Contrast this to Treliving, who won't get caught with his pants down the same way, ala Cervenka.)

Reflection of his work ethic - which is the trait that most people seemed to talk about when Treliving was hired - that no one works as hard as him.

I think what you describe is a sign of that.

And that isn't to suggest that other GMs also don't work hard. But Treliving strikes me as a roll up your sleeves and get into the trenches kinda guy.

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

They way I look at things, the first round pick should be the pick the organization is 100% assured of and committed to. That other picks pan out is a credit to the scouting team and the GM in a different way. Some picks are made for depth, some to take chances on players that are a gamble... but I feel that busting a first rounder is a much more egregious indictment of a GM's abilities and reflects on the truist extent of their vision. For me, Darryl's first round busts really reveal how much the things he was looking for did not reflect the reality of successful NHL players down the road.

Some GMs are great a player management and bad at drafting, and the other way around. Luck plays into a lot of things. I can give Darryl credit for scouting Gio but he also was the one who forced him over to Russia (that might ultimately have been a good thing for his development, but it showed a lack of confidence at the time on both parties).

I have to give Feaster credit for refusing to deal Ferland when Phoenix tried hard to get him in the Langkow/Stemps deal. That shows Feaster had some forsight there.

Would you consider the 2011 draft a bad reflection on Feaster?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

And that isn't to suggest that other GMs also don't work hard. But Treliving strikes me as a roll up your sleeves and get into the trenches kinda guy.

I recently read an interview with Treliving asking him about his hobbies, favourites books, things he likes to do away from the game, etc. Nothing. N/A. He basically admitted hockey is his life, 24/7.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

A little off topic, but who do you guys think Feaster would have picked if we had 1st OA in 2013? Jones? MacKinnon?

MacKinnon without question.