Sven

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Monahan's numbers were no different than Baertschi's over the amount of games he played last year.

Monahan plays a more difficult position and even though he struggled at times he never looked out of place amongst bigger men. Sven in the NHL has been a perimeter player that's soft on the puck and just doesn't look comfortable. For sure every once in a while you will see the flash as he gets a decent scoring chance but all too often he's easily removed from the play by stronger players. I just haven't seen anything that sticks out as while he's skilled he's not a blazing skater, doesn't use his body like say Byron to initiate play, and doesn't appear to have the wizardry of Gadreau. He's just a smallish player with good hockey skills but he just lacks that jam to his game. His early season slump in the AHL isn't that alarming in October but by Christmas I would hope he's becoming a solid contributor and by the end of the season knocking on the door for a call up. If not I do wonder about his future with this organization.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Monahan plays a more difficult position and even though he struggled at times he never looked out of place amongst bigger men. Sven in the NHL has been a perimeter player that's soft on the puck and just doesn't look comfortable. For sure every once in a while you will see the flash as he gets a decent scoring chance but all too often he's easily removed from the play by stronger players. I just haven't seen anything that sticks out as while he's skilled he's not a blazing skater, doesn't use his body like say Byron to initiate play, and doesn't appear to have the wizardry of Gadreau. He's just a smallish player with good hockey skills but he just lacks that jam to his game. His early season slump in the AHL isn't that alarming in October but by Christmas I would hope he's becoming a solid contributor and by the end of the season knocking on the door for a call up. If not I do wonder about his future with this organization.

I simply disagree. Monahan and Colborne were very much perimeter players, especially given that they played centre (before Colborne was moved to wing). Both are still rather indecisive.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I won't pretend to know what goes on in the coaches room, but from what I understand or at least gathered from quotes over the past two seasons is this.

Youth makes mistakes
If said youth understands the mistakes, does video and makes adjustments they're golden
If said youth doesn't understand, and then doesn't learn from the mistakes they're gone

He has talked over and over again about Monahan and Colborne being sponges, he has similar comments about Brodie, and Backlund. He's scratched all but one of them.

But Baertschi was making peewee mistakes and then going out the next game and doing it again. That gets you sent down for development.

This organization has had all but Monahan put in time in the AHL, you have to go there, get it, improve your two way play and get promoted. Baertschi hasn't so he isn't here.

I don't see it as unfair, I see it as the road they all travel. He just can't get off the rumble strips.

I think it is a maturity thing. Monahan was constantly praised for how he handled coaching and how he carried himself around the veterans. It wasn't his production alone that kept him in the NHL. And when they talk about how coachable a player is, a big part of that is how they accept criticism. If a player lacks the maturity to handle it without the coach wearing kid gloves, then the AHL (or another developmental league) is a better place to learn.

If Burke criticizing Baertschi is enough to ruin him, then the kid was never going to make it. I don't believe that is the case, but it is concerning that he hasn't been able to persevere through a little adversity.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I simply disagree. Monahan and Colborne were very much perimeter players, especially given that they played centre (before Colborne was moved to wing). Both are still rather indecisive.

Ha ha ha. I'm done arguing with you over Baertschi as you have shown over the years you simply can't be reasoned with on this topic. I really do hope that one day tell us "I told you so" but I fear that day may not come and that's unfortunate for the Flames.

[Biyaaaah]

Originally Posted by polak

This.

This x 10.

I honestly think we might have ruined Sven by trying to make him into a two-way player. We made him focus too much on defense and his offense seemed to take a hit from it. Even in the preseason it looked like he was trying too hard to be a defensive forward, throwing his body around and stuff. I personally don't think that is his game. Why does he need to be forced to play that way? Players like that are a dime a dozen.

I would have let him develop his offense and then teach the defense once he was scoring at a level that would keep him in the NHL.



I'd take Yakupov over Sven 10 times out of 10 at this point. You can't force players to completely change their game.

I don't think it's possible to ruin a player by teaching them a 200ft game. Guy's don't magically loose their talents just because they learn to back check in the right lanes and position themselves properly in their own zone. It's the positioning in your own zone that leads to strong breakouts, good puck support and strong zone entries. So strong play in the defensive and neutral zones should eventually help you in the offensive zone. Backlund and Byron are prime examples of this.

Players can't score game winners every night but by playing a 200ft game and positioning themselves properly throughout the night it gives those playing around them a better chance to contribute to a win. 1 or 2 bad turnovers is the difference between winning and loosing on many nights. How often do you see Schultz, eberle, yak, make horrible defensive plays that directly lead to goals? Surely far more often than they score.

Sven is still a talented offensive player and I hope he fills a role in our top 9 down the road. Expecting him to be a 1st line winger probably wasn't realistic when you look at that draft year. Nuge was #1 and certainly hasn't looked like a 1st line centre to this point(although he's still young I think he tops out as a good #2 on a playoff team).

Anyways, I wasn't trying to directly compare Sven to Yak and OV. I was just citing them as 2 NHLers that always go for the goal regardless of the cost to their team. One way players don't help teams win in today's NHL. They get exploited

[iamca]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

What proof do you have that he's immature? Pouting?

Poor offensive output = pouting?

The article on him after he was sent down on his birthday (his response to hhis father's comments) seems to indicate the exact opposite.

It's funny. Before Burke's tirade in the media, this fan base thought of him as a hard working, energetic, and passionate player. First guy on the ice for practice, last guy off. That viewpoint literally changed overnight with no factual basis.

Proof? Has his confidence and game gone to absolute horse dung? Sven should be lighting it up in the A. The proof is in his performance or lack thereof. If he is a plus player and leading the team in scoring we are talking about Sven as the next call up.

Sven is not a bust, but unless a player is a sponge and learning from their mistakes what is he doing? Not progressing is not good especially in what should be and is a development stint for Sven.

It doesn't matter what he says or Burke or his Dad, he's measured by his output. First on the ice, last one off, that's great, but what's that translating to on the ice?

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by iamca

Proof? Has his confidence and game gone to absolute horse dung? Sven should be lighting it up in the A. The proof is in his performance or lack thereof. If he is a plus player and leading the team in scoring we are talking about Sven as the next call up.

Sven is not a bust, but unless a player is a sponge and learning from their mistakes what is he doing? Not progressing is not good especially in what should be and is a development stint for Sven.

It doesn't matter what he says or Burke or his Dad, he's measured by his output. First on the ice, last one off, that's great, but what's that translating to on the ice?

You literally did not cover a single point in my post, but ok.

[Ashasx]

nm

[Dienasty]

This is ridiculous.

Yeah that is a good idea let's judge Baertschi on 8 games this season. You all realize that he went to the world championships with Switzerland and got injured right? The guy was injured for a month and is probably 2 steps behind all the guys that were healthy and had a full off season of training.

The sample size is way to small to draw any conclusions from his performance. Why don't we just call Reinhart a bust and send him to the ECHL too since he hasn't performed this season as well. Heck let's give up on Knight too he only has 1g in 8 games...

I can't wait until the next game when this line finally figures it out and everyone can just relax.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

What proof do you have that he's immature? Pouting?

Poor offensive output = pouting?

The article on him after he was sent down on his birthday (his response to hhis father's comments) seems to indicate the exact opposite.

It's funny. Before Burke's tirade in the media, this fan base thought of him as a hard working, energetic, and passionate player. First guy on the ice for practice, last guy off. That viewpoint literally changed overnight with no factual basis.

That's the issue.

It has nothing to do with Burke's tirade.

People were already starting to see it with how he acted at development camp and the prospects tourney. And you could argue his struggles started even before that when he didn't impress coming out of the lock out and was sent down then.

And I know that you and Nik like to say there is no proof of him pouting but the majority of the media in Calgary has alluded to this at some point since it happened.

Darren Haynes alluded to it.

Was Baertschi miffed that he was invited to a 'rookie camp' despite having 25 NHL games on his resume? Although still considered a rookie by NHL standards, that sure was the prevailing feeling you got. I relate it to a 15-year-old boy being forced by his parents to take his 10-year-old sister out Halloweening. The impression Baertschi left was that he wasn't motivated.

George Johnson mentioned it:

Could be Baertschi be too comfortable? Hard to believe of a guy who has only 25 regular-season games to offer as collateral but maybe he feels he’s past the point of having to prove himself at this level. And if so, he’s dead wrong.

He not have felt he belonged at the summer development camp and then the pre-training camp prospects gathering in Penticton, but the team wanted him there for a reason. And they do pay his wages.

Freeway has mentioned it in threads about this same topic before.

Burke has some role in this since he maybe didn't understand that Sven was fragile mentally when he made those comments.

I would also argue that when they sent him down last year it was too late since it was after his game had started to improve, he either should not have made the team out of camp, or been sent down in the first 5 - 10 games if they wanted to send a message.

Also I am not sure Hartley has handled him the best but when I see how he handles our other propsects I have to think that Sven must had a role behind closed doors as well in not doing what Hartley was asking.

I still think Sven is going to be a player, that people are over reacting to a small sample size this year, and personally I thought he had a great training camp and would have had him on my opening night roster.

But to overlook his role in this whole thing and place the blame solely on Hartley and Burke is overlooking the shortcomings that Sven himself has had over the last two seasons.

[Freeway]

Sometimes it takes awhile for guys to figure it out. I mean, Paul Byron was 23/24 before it all clicked for him.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

That's the issue.

It has nothing to do with Burke's tirade.

People were already starting to see it with how he acted at development camp and the prospects tourney. And you could argue his struggles started even before that when he didn't impress coming out of the lock out and was sent down then.

And I know that you and Nik like to say there is no proof of him pouting but the majority of the media in Calgary has alluded to this at some point since it happened.

Darren Haynes alluded to it.

George Johnson mentioned it:

Freeway has mentioned it in threads about this same topic before.

Burke has some role in this since he maybe didn't understand that Sven was fragile mentally when he made those comments.

I would also argue that when they sent him down last year it was too late since it was after his game had started to improve, he either should not have made the team out of camp, or been sent down in the first 5 - 10 games if they wanted to send a message.

Also I am not sure Hartley has handled him the best but when I see how he handles our other propsects I have to think that Sven must had a role behind closed doors as well in not doing what Hartley was asking.

I still think Sven is going to be a player, that people are over reacting to a small sample size this year, and personally I thought he had a great training camp and would have had him on my opening night roster.

But to overlook his role in this whole thing and place the blame solely on Hartley and Burke is overlooking the shortcomings that Sven himself has had over the last two seasons.

Good post Super Matt. It's amazing to me how many people just want so badly to find a reason or an explanation for why Sven hasn't YET met expectations WE (the fans) have put on him that absolves Sven completely of responsibility. Maybe because they bought his jersey already, maybe it's just because the talked smack to some Oilers fans about how good a prospect he was and are fearful of being proved wrong, but it's something.

None of us really know what's going on with Sven. There's definitely some evidence (granted it's circumstantial and not completely validatable, as information of this sort never is) that he's certainly had some entitlement issues and it hasn't helped. There's also evidence that suggests things were going better for him early on, and something has changed.

But why so many are so anxious to say that either Burke or Hartley are mostly responsible for this is mind bottling. Is it possible they are miss handling him, absolutely. Is it the most likely scenario, absolutely not. What we do know is this:

- Neither Burke, Hartley, Treliving or anyone in our staff has a reputation of runining or miss guiding prospects on mass. Am I saying they've never made mistakes, no, but it's not an ongoing issue with most of these guys that we've been able to see.

- Many other current Flame prospects seem to be progressing nicely under the system.

- The Flames, Burke and the coaches have no reasonable motivation to not see Sven succeed, so why would they do anything they didn't think was in his (and therefore their) best interest?

Given the above, while not impossible that the Flames are mishandling Sven, or "ruining him" for whatever reason, it's far from the most likely secenario. So why so many are obsessed with pointing the finger away from Sven, or trying to prove out some off the wall theory is beyond me.

IF Sven isn't performing up to expectations at this point, the most likely reason or explanation is coming from him. Either he's not as good as we'd hoped, or he's not getting it done for whatever reason. But this mentality of some almost suggest that the Flames top priority is to find a way to get Sven going, and it's not. Their priority is to invest time, development and facilitate opportunity into the prospects that look like they will provide the best long term upside for the team, and they seem to be doing that. Their goal isn't to make sure Feaster's Sven predictions come true at all cost.

[Tyler]

Has Brian Burke said anything since the season started?

Eerily quiet on the BB front. Guess that's good for Brad.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Tyler

Eerily quiet on the BB front. Guess that's good for Brad.

Good for Brad? I assumed it was because of Brad. The guy gives me the eerie silent scary type of vibe. A sort of guy I swear could smile at you while destroying you.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Tyler

Has Brian Burke said anything since the season started?

Eerily quiet on the BB front. Guess that's good for Brad.

I recall maybe it was in the Sun but it was an article about Sven putting in hard work in the offseason and Treliving being impressed with his work ethic and attitude. I imagine he came into camp in a good mind frame and to the coaches at least he wasn't quite where they felt he needed to be to make the team. Really I don't think there's much else to conclude unless you believe there is some conspiracy going on.

[MissTeeks]

Originally Posted by Tyler

Has Brian Burke said anything since the season started?

Eerily quiet on the BB front. Guess that's good for Brad.

From earlier in the preseason:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/b...ow-in-calgary/

“This is the first interview I’ve done, probably since the draft,” he says Tuesday afternoon, standing in a doorway on the dressing room level at the Saddledome. “Look — this (situation) works as long as the president of hockey operations doesn’t have a big ego. I want it clear to the fans: Brad (Treliving) is the GM here.”

“I’ve never craved the spotlight,” Burke said. “It’s funny: Guys like you ask me for interviews, and then accuse me of wanting the spotlight. I never called anyone up and said, ‘Hey, let’s do an interview.’ But I gave colourful comments, and I think, thoughtful answers. But that was part of the job.
“I’m very happy to be in the background. The face of the franchise is, and should be, Brad.”

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Apples and oranges. Colborne was a different case as the Flames couldn't send him to the AHL without passing through waivers. Once they made the trade for him they pretty well had to play keep him on the big club and play him or it was a 4th round pick down the drain for nothing. He was pretty rough around the edges but the kid worked his butt off and made a lot of improvement over the season.

Colborne did work on his game and has definitely improved. However, it is fair to say that he was rather poor at the beginning... weak on the puck, turnovers and generally ineffective. I think people comparing Colborne's treatment to Baertschi's aren't downplaying the former's development, but rather wondering what type of position we'd be in with Sven had he been dealt with similarly.

Every player is unique, and it's a fair question to ask if Colborne would be as good as he is if we had the "luxury" of sending him to Abby last season? Did being up with the club practically full time give him a bit of confidence to sort through his game? Conversely, would Sven have the same deficits in his game had he received the Colborne treatment in the NHL?

I think it is possible to wonder about these questions without denying that 1) Colborne seems to have benefitted from being in the NHL all last season and 2) Sven may have developed better had he been allowed to learn from his mistakes in the NHL.

[Tyler]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

Good for Brad? I assumed it was because of Brad. The guy gives me the eerie silent scary type of vibe. A sort of guy I swear could smile at you while destroying you.

Yeah, I've heard all the BB rhetoric about him stepping out of the spotlight. Then BOOM, Jay Feaster firing and I became skeptical again. Good on him for staying true to his word.

[sureLoss]

Huska on the fan960

said Reinhart and Baertschi are having troubles finding the back of the net... may be getting frustrated
both have had great attitudes... both are putting extra work in to try to get over the hump
both Reinhart and Baertschi have been identified as go to guys for the Flames by opposing teams and are not getting the easy defensive matchups

[ToraToraTora]

Im at the fan attic.

Lets just say this is a bad sign.