Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Here's the circular logic in action.

"They won't act like a civilized nation and upgrade their infrastructure, so we're going to embargo them to prevent them from upgrading their infrastructure.

See what nice guys we are? If they would just act like an autonomous country we would let them act like an autonomous country, but we they won't so we'll continue to not let them."

A third of Israeli water comes from internationally recognized illegal land settlements.

There's the 'two sides' thing, and then there's the rampant disregard for the rule of law and international opinion.

Except that:

1) there is no embargo on the West Bank. We are talking about the West Bank here.

2) the cost of upgraded the water system is relatively low. If it hadn't been neglected it would have been in the 10s of millions, but now it's estimated in the low 100s of millions. To put that in perspective Arafat and his cronies continue to take billions of dollars a year. The US alone donates 500 million a year to the Palestinian Authority. Israel collecs over 100 million per month on behalf of the Palestinian Authority. The Palestinians have launched over 10,000 rockets at Israel. Each rocket is composed of steel that could have been used to replace a water pipe.

3) A 3rd of Israel's water does not come from internationally recognized illegal settlements. Firstly, as previously stated the recognized boundary of the Golan Heights included a 10 meter buffer zone around like Tiberius. Syria was never meant to have any access to it. Secondly, Israel takes water from the West Bank pursuant to the Oslo Accords, which both sides agreed on. Thirdly, as previously stated, Israel has diversified its water sources. Now desalinated water makes up about 40% of israel's drinking water. That number is expected to reach 70% in the next few years.

Much easier to just blame all of the Palestinians' problems on Israel though.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

Yeah...its only those Muslim Arabs who oppose the Israeli zionist regime. How about Nelson Mandela, Noam Chomsky and former US president Jimmy Carter?

Or the thousands of orthodox jews who protest every year against zionist Israel and call for its peaceful destruction.

Israel has to reap what it has sown, apartheid and violence only beget a wild terrorist resistance.

P.S. someone who is on the Palestinian side of things cannot be labeled anti-Semitic. Arabs are semitic people as well. Semitic meaning someone who descends from the biblical son of Noah called Shem. So cut the crap about everyone who sympathizes with the Palestinians being anti-semitic. They are both semitic people, supporting Palestine doesnt make you anti-semitic it makes you anti-zionist

And to those of you calling it a hatecrime when people label Israel as a theocratic apartheid state - you are completely ignorant of what the words anti-semitism or hate crime mean.

The fact that Jews and Israelis openly criticize Israel just goes to show what an open and free society it is. We have protestors in Canada too. Does that deligitimize our society?

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by blankall

Oh, please...don't state facts?

It's a fact that the Palestinians have not fully developed all the water supplies they have and do not pull the full amount they are entitled to under the Oslo Accords. They also lose large amounts of water to leaky pipes. They also have no "grey water" system and refuse to use grey water.

And Israel doesn't go in to the West Bank and steal the water. If flows naturally into Israel from there.

But I guess it's more convenient to say...the average Israeli has x times as much water as the average Palestinians or that Palestinians must buy water off Israelis (at a reduced rated, which was negotiated under the Oslo Accords).

It actually may all be a moot point anyways. Israel has invented a desalination process which will soon be cheaper than piping in water.

Here's a link from Amnesty Int'l which describes the water situation. Many neutral bodies say the exact same thing.

Excerpt:

"Israel allows the Palestinians access to only a fraction of the shared water resources, which lie mostly in the occupied West Bank, while the unlawful Israeli settlements there receive virtually unlimited supplies. In Gaza the Israeli blockade has made an already dire situation worse,” said Donatella Rovera, Amnesty International’s researcher on Israel and the OPT.

In a new extensive report, Amnesty International revealed the extent to which Israel’s discriminatory water policies and practices are denying Palestinians their right to access to water.

Israel uses more than 80 per cent of the water from the Mountain Aquifer, the main source of underground water in Israel and the OPT, while restricting Palestinian access to a mere 20 per cent.

It has also imposed a complex system of permits which the Palestinians must obtain from the Israeli army and other authorities in order to carry out water-related projects in the OPT. Applications for such permits are often rejected or subject to long delays.

Restrictions imposed by Israel on the movement of people and goods in the OPT further compound the difficulties Palestinians face when trying to carry out water and sanitation projects."

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-u...water-20091027

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

Is it 1998? Still dragging this one out?

It shows 4 seperate things.

1) Land owned by Jews in what is now Israel. At this time that land was part of the Ottoman Turkish Empire and then the British Mandate of Palestine. The rest of the land was mostly held pubicly and not by Paelstinians.

2) The initial borders. The Arabs rejected these borders.

3) The ceasefire line after the 1967 war. A war where several Arab nations attacked Israel. If Israel had lost that war, the Arabs would not be giving them back any land.

4) The land under control of the Palestinian National Authority...in the year 2000. Since then Israel has withdrawn from the Gaza Strip.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

Yeah...its only those Muslim Arabs who oppose the Israeli zionist regime. How about Nelson Mandela, Noam Chomsky and former US president Jimmy Carter?

Or the thousands of orthodox jews who protest every year against zionist Israel and call for its peaceful destruction.

Israel has to reap what it has sown, apartheid and violence only beget a wild terrorist resistance.

P.S. someone who is on the Palestinian side of things cannot be labeled anti-Semitic. Arabs are semitic people as well. Semitic meaning someone who descends from the biblical son of Noah called Shem. So cut the crap about everyone who sympathizes with the Palestinians being anti-semitic. They are both semitic people, supporting Palestine doesnt make you anti-semitic it makes you anti-zionist

And to those of you calling it a hatecrime when people label Israel as a theocratic apartheid state - you are completely ignorant of what the words anti-semitism or hate crime mean.

The thing about Israel is that is a free country and therefore people do openly express their opinions and protest. Of course it's wrong to say that there is an "Israeli" or a "Jewish" opinion or that all Muslims/Arabs have the same opinion on these matters. Kurds for example tend to be fairly sympathetic to Israel (which has influenced Turkey's foreign policy on Israel). Just like within any given demographic, there is going to be differing views. What do you think Hamas does to Palestinians who sympathize with Israelis?

Also, are those photos Lev Tahor?

[SebC]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Well, 1 billion people can't all be wrong can they?

This can't be serious. Of course they can.

[crazy_eoj]

If Palestine were to lay down their guns tomorrow, there would be no war. If Israel were to lay down theirs, there would be no Israel - Benjamin Netanyahu

It's pretty sad actually. The Palestinian commitment to violence has eroded most rational sympathy.

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Fair comment.


But I have a hazy memory of a middle east country saying something along the lines of they wanted to destroy Israel, but again this is a memory and I have no source (I would happy to be wrong on that point).

This is interesting:

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/03...-israel-video/




I can't recall there being a statement by Israel that they wished to destroy Palestine or other neighbours.

Well remember this was poll taking during the height of the mass arrests due to the murders of the the three teens. I imagine that the attitude is even harder now with the murder of the Palestinian teenager.

For what it's worth a Israeli poll in 2012 a majority of respondents agree with denying West Bank Palestinian the right to vote if the West Bank were annexed.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...theid-policies

[blankall]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Here's a link from Amnesty Int'l which describes the water situation. Many neutral bodies say the exact same thing.

Excerpt:

"Israel allows the Palestinians access to only a fraction of the shared water resources, which lie mostly in the occupied West Bank, while the unlawful Israeli settlements there receive virtually unlimited supplies. In Gaza the Israeli blockade has made an already dire situation worse,” said Donatella Rovera, Amnesty International’s researcher on Israel and the OPT.

In a new extensive report, Amnesty International revealed the extent to which Israel’s discriminatory water policies and practices are denying Palestinians their right to access to water.

Israel uses more than 80 per cent of the water from the Mountain Aquifer, the main source of underground water in Israel and the OPT, while restricting Palestinian access to a mere 20 per cent.

It has also imposed a complex system of permits which the Palestinians must obtain from the Israeli army and other authorities in order to carry out water-related projects in the OPT. Applications for such permits are often rejected or subject to long delays.

Restrictions imposed by Israel on the movement of people and goods in the OPT further compound the difficulties Palestinians face when trying to carry out water and sanitation projects."

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-u...water-20091027

Amnesty International is not a neutral body. They are a body that receives funding only if they can show they are working in an area where oppression is going on. They will go to great lengths to skew reports.

This report was also written in 2009. Since then the Israelis have allowed projects to be built directly by outside groups. The Palestinians usually opt against that option, instead wanting the funds to be given to them directly.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

Well remember this was poll taking during the height of the mass arrests due to the murders of the the three teens. I imagine that the attitude is even harder now with the murder of the Palestinian teenager.

For what it's worth a Israeli poll in 2012 a majority of respondents agree with denying West Bank Palestinian the right to vote if the West Bank were annexed.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...theid-policies

You mean Israelis don't want to be ruled by Hamas? That's a surprise. If the whole thing became one country and the Arabs had a majority, they would elect governments like Hamas. Obviously Israelis don't want that.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

Well remember this was poll taking during the height of the mass arrests due to the murders of the the three teens. I imagine that the attitude is even harder now with the murder of the Palestinian teenager.

For what it's worth a Israeli poll in 2012 a majority of respondents agree with denying West Bank Palestinian the right to vote if the West Bank were annexed.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...theid-policies

I'm interested in seeing where the Israeli investigation goes with this one since it did take place in Jerusalem.

the subtle difference is if the Israeli teens murders was done by known Hamas operatives as has been indicated then its a government sponsored killing. If the retaliation killing was done by a radical group as indicated so far then its equivalent to gang violence and different.

[Stealth22]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Sorry, do you think his post was serious?

I agree it was not funny, and in poor taste, but certainly it was not serious.

Oh no, of course not. I might have overreacted a bit in my original post, so I can see how I would have given you that impression.

But I do think it was over the line. Sarcasm and humor is one thing, but like you said, it was in poor taste.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by blankall

Amnesty International is not a neutral body. They are a body that receives funding only if they can show they are working in an area where oppression is going on. They will go to great lengths to skew reports.

This report was also written in 2009. Since then the Israelis have allowed projects to be built directly by outside groups. The Palestinians usually opt against that option, instead wanting the funds to be given to them directly.

Uh huh. It's always something, isn't it? Oh, that's not a neutral body, oh they're withholding Palestinian money because somehow getting an upgraded status at the UN is a threat to Israeli security, oh they just hate Israel for the sake of hate and not because they can see the illegal construction taking place in front of their eyes. On and on the excuses go.

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I'll let you decide then.

How about this? Give me a reason why I should like Israel?

Democracy
Women's rights

Those are two pretty compelling reasons aren't they?

Serious Question:
If the Palestinians are in such a bad space there - why haven't the other countries in the Middle East opened their doors to them? You'd think the neighboring countries would pluck them away and help them.

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I'm interested in seeing where the Israeli investigation goes with this one since it did take place in Jerusalem.

the subtle difference is if the Israeli teens murders was done by known Hamas operatives as has been indicated then its a government sponsored killing. If the retaliation killing was done by a radical group as indicated so far then its equivalent to gang violence and different.

The alleged murderers of the teens are part of a clan that has historically sabotaged Hamas attempts to moderate and given Hamas recent entry into a Palestinian unity government that recognizes Israel it's unlikely the kidnappings and murders were sanction by seniors. The key is if Hamas is willing to disavow it's most militant members. Sadly I suspect that they won't and Israel assassinate their most senior political and military leaders and the hot-heads take over and everything starts over again.
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/orig...ce-hatred.html

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

Democracy
Women's rights

Those are two pretty compelling reasons aren't they?

Serious Question:
If the Palestinians are in such a bad space there - why haven't the other countries in the Middle East opened their doors to them? You'd think the neighboring countries would pluck them away and help them.

Actually, the opposite has happened. I think a lot of people forget that Jordan fought a war against Palestinians. A lot of Palestinians in the West Bank are descendants of people that were booted out of Jordan proper. Black September anyone? Let's not forget that in 1947 to 1968, Jordan occupied the West Bank and sent Palestinian settlers/refugees there because the royal family was worried that they would be overthrown if they didn't change the demographics. I have also heard that Palestinian migrants in places like Saudi Arabia and Iraq are basically treated as second class citizens.

It's funny that Jordan gets let off the hook so often.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

Democracy
Women's rights

Those are two pretty compelling reasons aren't they?

Serious Question:
If the Palestinians are in such a bad space there - why haven't the other countries in the Middle East opened their doors to them? You'd think the neighboring countries would pluck them away and help them.

Big deal. A lot of countries have democracy and women's rights. That doesn't excuse their actions against the Palestinians.

Furthermore, I would argue that not everyone inside land that Israel claims has equal rights and democracy. So, that statement above is only partially true.

Why should the Palestinians have to leave their land to live a dignified life? Shouldn't it be up to them to determine the type of life they want to have within their country?

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Big deal. A lot of countries have democracy and women's rights. That doesn't excuse their actions against the Palestinians.

Furthermore, I would argue that not everyone inside land that Israel claims has equal rights and democracy. So, that statement above is only partially true.

Why should the Palestinians have to leave their land to live a dignified life? Shouldn't it be up to them to determine the type of life they want to have within their country?

Just to be clear, you are saying that settlements are a justification for violence against Israeli citizens, and that the Jews should have to leave their land to live a dignified (ie: non-terrorized) life?

Or is it just a double standard kind of thing.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

Just to be clear, you are saying that settlements are a justification for violence against Israeli citizens, and that the Jews should have to leave their land to live a dignified (ie: non-terrorized) life?

Or is it just a double standard kind of thing.

Jewish settlements in the West Bank aren't Israel though. So yes, they should leave those settlements and leave the Palestinians alone. If they want to be citizens in a new Palestinian state, though, they're more than welcome to stay.

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Big deal. A lot of countries have democracy and women's rights. That doesn't excuse their actions against the Palestinians.

when you're talking Middle East; democracy and women's rights doesn't seem the norm so I'd say yes it is a big deal.