[PGT] Flames Fall 5 - 1

[Dion]

Originally Posted by CSharp

I think the Flames need to scratch Sven and play Ramo for the rest of the season. Flames need to tank anyway. So, no big loss here. It's hard to cheer for them this way, but what the hay!

[JobHopper]

Tough loss and those will happen. The problem is the Flames don't have a good 4th line especially when you play teams like the Wild.

So Sven will probably be back in next game and maybe Backland sits again, or Galiardi.

Forget this loss and move on to the next game in St. Louis.

[FBI]

You guys talking about 0-2 without Sven are also forgetting hartleys other moronic scratch of backlund a few games ago. We are 0-3 with Hartley scratching our young core.

And one more thing, jackman with monahan and hurler? Wtf. I'd rather see ANYBODY from the farm than jackman. Hanowski, blair jones, reinhart, whoever. Get jackman off this team.

[sergei_makarov]

Originally Posted by JobHopper

Tough loss and those will happen. The problem is the Flames don't have a good 4th line especially when you play teams like the Wild.

So Sven will probably be back in next game and maybe Backland sits again, or Galiardi.

Forget this loss and move on to the next game in St. Louis.

Do they have the bodies with Glencross out to sit Backlund / Galiardi?

Flames probably roll with:

Sven - Monahan - Hudler
Backlund - Stajan - Jones
Cammalleri - Colborne - Galiardi
Jackman - Bouma - McGrattan

[FBI]

That makes more sense.

Originally Posted by sergei_makarov

Do they have the bodies with Glencross out to sit Backlund / Galiardi?

Flames probably roll with:

Sven - Monahan - Hudler
Backlund - Stajan - Jones
Cammalleri - Colborne - Galiardi
Jackman - Bouma - McGrattan

[iamca]

For anyone that didn't watch the Minnesota feed tonight, they have one of their 3 broadcasters standing between the benches. After the Wild`s fourth goal, Hartley is walking back and forth behind the bench and loudly stating "someone better show me something out there"!

The puck drops and Jackman goes after Pominville, then ends up with a 2,5, 10 and a game misconduct for his antics including fighting Stoner.

Personally, I think Hartley did not react well. His choice of words behind the bench and who he put on the ice did absolutely nothing to get the team coming off the ice and into St Louis on a positive note. The game was essentially over at 3-1, Flames looking like they were skating in quicksand, so why not pull Berra to send a message to the team. Even if they don't put out more effort, which we can't say since he wasn't pulled, it's better than letting a rookie goalie hang out to dry.

[WhiteTiger]

Oof, kind of glad I missed this one. >.<

[C-ero]

Glencross and Galiardi with brutal turnovers that resulted in Wild goals. Don't worry, Backlund will be scratched and Sven will be given an exclusive video session.

[topfiverecords]

This is great. Beat teams like Chicago, lose to teams like Minnesota. We get a fix every now and then of a real exciting team effort gutsy win, and then the next game I'm perfectly ok with a loss as come the end of the season that would be 2 extra points we're not going to want.

[Dion]

Jackman and McGratton serve no useful purpose on this team other than being an enforcer. To me it's a sad reality when you need players like that on your team. They are taking away roster spots from players who actually have some hockey skills.

[genetic_phreek]

emotional win in Chicago and Hartley changes the roster. Fail
i dont disagree with benching young guys but replacing them with "energy" non scorers is stupid. at the end of the day, we need goals.

you don't need to work hard if you're working smart. its all about being efficient. Hartley has done good for us since joining but this loss falls on him. plain and simple.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Galiardi is a 3rd/4th liner on a good team...I think some of you are forgetting how weak the roster is. You can't expect guys to be something they aren't just because the Flames don't have top end talent

Didn't he play with Joe Thortons line in San Jose. Actually they mentioned it several times when they played the sharks last , they mentioned that . I believe that statement is false that you made.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Realtor 1

This is not true... I guarantee you there are guys in the dressing room, not named Sven who can't believe Sven is benched in place of other guys and really don't like it. This can translate onto the ice. Im not saying it is why we get blown out but attitude and effort can quickly shift going down 3-1

You can guarantee this? How?

I will be patiently awaiting your response, complete with some sort of proof or clearly reasoned rationale to support the claim that there are players on the team who are mystified and upset by Sven's healthy scratches.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Serapth

...Yes, young players are going to #### up, and need some time in the press box to develop. But when one of those young players is quite literally the only pariah in the press, someone ####ed up. Sit him, sure. Make a media example of him? Certainly not! Give veterans that are playing many times worse than him more opportunity, and christ! Praise in the media.... thats just bad management.

Perhaps I missed something, but was there ever an explanation provided by the coaching staff for scratching Baertschi?

You are making two fundamentally unsubstantiated assumptions in your several misguided and irrational posts in this thread:

The first, is that "meritocracy" is very simply defined as awarding games and ice-time solely on the basis of good and poor performances. I expect that some of this is true, but would further submit that things are actually much, much more complicated.
· Players have set roles, and coaches will make their determinations based on these roles
· Every NHL team will play the game differently, and the coaches will makes decisions based on adjustments that need to be made from game-to-game depending upon whom they are playing
· Players themselves will experience shifts in various aspects of their play, but also in their own mood that could also affect why a coach might choose to play or to scratch them
· Perhaps most importantly, The specific parameters for how the system works is NOT PUBLIC INFORMATION.

So, even though we may see things occur that appear to conflict with management's version of a "meritocracy", this is in no way an proof that they are disingenuous in their approach.

Second, you seem to think that you know the reason behind why Baertschi was scratched for his two games, and you have clearly concluded that it is a form of (unfairly assessed) discipline or punishment. To this I would say that you quite frankly have no idea whether your belief is accurate or not. For all we know, the Flames have pre-determined dates on the calendar for playing or sitting certain players. It is quite possible that Flames coaches have already mapped out with Baertschi a plan for the whole season in which he only plays a certain number of consecutive games. Another possibility is that Baertschi did not physically feel his best following the Chicago game (He did absorb a REALLY hard shot from Wideman in the first period; perhaps it affected him more than we know). If a young player physically, for whatever reason needs a break, but is not injured, why not scratch him instead of adding him to IR? Especially if he has not been playing great?

Finally, there is a fundamental difference between veterans and rookies on this team—and every other NHL team except perhaps the Edmonton Oilers—that supersedes "meritocracy." The fact of the matter is that rookies and veterans will receive different treatment from coaches and management, and this is based on their own needs, function, and course of development.

[Poe969]

Originally Posted by nik-

Not gonna happen. Buffalo has FIVE points after 16 games. We're likely ending up at 6 again ... and I'm like 8% joking. For sure Philly, Buffalo and Florida finish lower than us.

I honestly think Philly will get in a groove soon, I mean giroux will start to score and that team isn't this bad just give them time. Florida should get better one Thomas is back. That leaves the terrible terrible sabres, hopefully we win the draft lottery over them!

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Poe969

I honestly think Philly will get in a groove soon, I mean giroux will start to score and that team isn't this bad just give them time. Florida should get better one Thomas is back. That leaves the terrible terrible sabres, hopefully we win the draft lottery over them!

You guys both forgot the Oilers.

[GreenLantern]

We are all ok with losing, we prepared for this.. but we expected to lose with a team full of rookies. Not veterans making mistakes with no repercussions while the young players sit in the press box.

I'd rather have Sven stare at a blank wall than watch that game last night.. you think that improved his sense of play? Maybe taught him what NOT to do I guess.. The trade deadline can't come fast enough.

[nmhen]

Here's what I saw, as an outsider:

A young roster of average-to-low overall level of high-end skill that worked its butt off for 50 minutes and got extremely good goaltending.

My guess before the game would have been that the Wild was the better team, but I didn't voice that because it was based only on what I've read about the Flames this season, not having seen any of their games.

Afterward, I would still say the Wild has more talent, but I could NOT say the Wild plays harder than the Flames. Granted, based on ONE whole game.

I don't know what has been promised to you guys about this Flames team this season, but I do know that I've had to sit through many years of average-to-low skilled Wild teams some of which worked hard (Lemaire era) and some of which didn't (Richards era). I'll take the hard-working teams any day.

I realize (from personal experience) that doesn't always make you feel any better about losing. But it's better than losing while playing indifferently.

Last, there seems to be a sub-set of you guys who become concerned about players' confidence being "shattered" after x-many games where the team doesn't win. And this penchant bothers another subset of you. To those whom it bothers, I would suggest - and I am absolutely not trying to troll you guys, I think (hope) I've established my respect for you as a fan base, and the Flames as a team throughout my tenure here - that's transference of their own shaky confidence about the team, nothing more. Maybe that helps you not be as bothered when your brethren exhibit this behavior. Behaviour. Whatever. Whateveur.

[Badgers Nose]

I echo the sentiment: it's the vets on this team that are no fun to watch.

Get rid of a few more and the product on ice will be better.

I hope Sven and Backs just give Hartley what he wants.

Like, you know, you gotta go to da net, like, you know harder dan dat. I told dem.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Was at the game last night. Overall impression is that this team works hard but not everyone is similarly invested. Two examples from watching after the play:

1) When Glencross failed to get that backhand clear on the PK and they gave up the second, heads hung and expressions changed very quickly. I was looking at TJ and he looked genuinely discouraged, but not in the "darn we just gave up a goal" manner. I was 7 rows back of Glencross and was shocked that he couldn't get that out... he had all the time in the world. Brodie's look was one of "come on, I'm working hard and you mess up an easy clearance?"

2) I think it was in the third, before things fell apart, where we had some sustained pressure. At one point Stajan skated a half circle around the zone and had Wideman very open on the point. Instead of making the good pass to give Wideman a nice look, Stajan looked him off and then just continued his skating arc, the defenders closed and he tried a weak wrister that got deflected out. After the whistle went, Wideman just stared at Stajan while slowly drifting backwards towards the bench for a change. Stajan was skating with him and just shrugged his shoulders.

Perhaps these are small things, but from them (and watching other after-the-play interactions) I got the impression that this team has some players that have realized the level of consistency and smart play that they need to exhibit in order to win. And then there are a few players who, either for lack of consistency, laziness, or lack of vision / skill, are just not on the same page and making life just a touch harder for others. Players like Cammi / Wideman seem to be invested in this team and you can see a contrast between them as veterans versus Stajan / Glencross.


Small anecdote: was at the game with the gf who is a local but doesn't follow hockey much. Her comment in the first period, unprompted by any complaining from yours truly: "Why does #8 look so slow out there?" It was followed on the next shift by "Oh no, #8 is back on already."